Also, I can't help but feel depressed thinking about countries with less sophisticated justice systems. The absolute power an individual (they can be low rank!) gives me the shudders.
There was also the cases where at least one British undercover police officer infiltrated environmental organisations, and in the process fathered children under their assumed identity.
These legal cases are just theatre with professional actors.
‘Justice being seen to be done’
Trust in the bbc has been nosediving, and up pops this case of the BBC holding the state to account… and the judges giving appearance of impartiality…
Some truly crazy things in that article too. For example,
> X states he will kill her, leaves the room, and returns holding a machete ... The video cuts out amid her screams ... X was arrested, charged with assaulting Beth and appeared in court. However, while he was at court, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) dropped the case.
How can there be a _video_ of a machete attack and the case is dropped?
> items of hers that had also been seized by counter terror officers were returned to a member of her family by a man who did not identify himself. The relative assumed the man was an associate of X. ... We have established the visitor was an MI5 officer. Material seized by a police investigation, under a police warrant, had been given to MI5.
Just read that last sentence!
I'm not a UK national, but tend to believe in them -- including MI5 -- being the 'good guys'. We need good guys in today's world, desperately. This kind of article is hard to read.
It reminds me of the secret service in a Nordic country (maybe Denmark?) that shared national secret info with the US without any right to do so, without approval of the national assembly.
Also, what should be the scariest thing in the report:
"as on board as other journalists"The accused agent, has brought shame and dishonor on their group, he effectively betrayed the organization with his actions, the fact his colleagues chose to break the law to support him is beyond the pale. This is just a symptom of the old boys club that normalizes deviancy, covering up slip ups and inevitably to shit like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five
Goes strongly against the common narrative about "the mainstream media" and state media in particular (about them being complicit and useless).
Original title of article is:
> How MI5 piled falsehood on falsehood in court in the case of a spy who abused women
Is it only because it would "look bad on MI5" if people like that worked there? Seems like such a trivial thing to immediately take a stand against and get rid of as soon as you notice it, rather than trying to hide
They considered this guy to be a valuable asset and so "raison d'etat" prevailed.
This also highlights that whatever the official line on police and justice independence fed to the public phone calls and meetings that "never happened", well actually do.
MI5/6 are never good guys.
States only believe in their own interests and the narrative always go towards the powerful and the one which won.
That’s the fatal flaw in international "justice" and has been from the start. Where were the people who allowed the nuclear bombing of civilians during the Nuremberg trials? Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? Because that’s not justice, merely retribution.
Then, you have to considered the role played by secret institutions in democratic countries. Do they serve the citizenship, the national interests (what does that even mean?), the people in power, themselves first and foremost? From history, I wouldn’t trust them very much, even less as a foreigner.
Be wary of any institution or person holding power. Check and balance are deeply needed and we should be horrified every times they are being limited or abused.
If the UK is still serious about being a liberal democracy, this should have sever consequences. I’m sadly fairly sure it won’t.
Perhaps some smaller countries have had secret services with an apparently clean record (would be hard to know for sure) at some point. But that could be more a matter of luck with who was in charge and hired at that point.
And depressingly, even that isn't true - states are plagued with the principal-agent problem[1], as is basically every organization.
---
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...
What the state of Israel is doing, for example, is not in its own interest and the untrammeled support given by the west to what it does is definitely not in our self interest.
Now the people involved will keep their position till the end, doing whatever needed and whatever the cost to not move despite being convicted or close to it.
To me, this is new in the last decades.
Look at Nixon with the Watergate, nowadays, same with Trump, the guys will just say "and so what?" And things will continue like if it was nothing.
Same in UK, same in France, ...
That which need not exist ought not cast a shadow, no? Drawing attention to themselves or their work is an own goal.
> Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Are they really, that sounds improbable but I will believe you for the purposes of this discussion.
> will be funded no matter what, and if some politician, judge, or media organisation gets in their way they can simply neutralise them.
They are MI5, they are pretty much glorified police. Their funding is not guaranteed, their existence is not guaranteed, they could be replaced as an organization as whole, or piecemeal.
See what's happening to the FBI, this could happen to them. All it would take would be sufficient political momentum or a teflon politician.
A politician on whom nothing sticks.
Something like someone who did know him as his secret identity would see his face, hear his association with MI5 and go “Wow Dude! Turns out ‘Niegel from Birmingham’ wasn’t really ‘Niegel’ at all! Didn’t he introduce us to Tommy as his old childhood friend? Maybe we shouldn’t trust Tommy anymore either. In fact why don’t we dangle Tommy from his ankles until he confesses?” So revealing that this miscreant is MI5 could put the life of other agents in danger too.
Or alternatively it can be about protecting some method. Like this terrible person introduced a bunch of criminals to a “secure chat” application, and you don’t want them to think it is not as secure as they think. (Obviously the names and particulars are wild guesses with no basis in reality.)
Not saying it is a great argument, but that is how these kind of agencies think sometimes.
The continued loyalty of their other employees, a significant proportion of whom also enjoy using their MI5 role as a tool of coercion?
All of these things together make it so that the immediate reaction to any apparent wrongdoing is to close ranks, tell nothing to outsiders like the police or prosecutors until some boss decides otherwise. And that boss will of course weigh any such decision against the risk that any minute secret might be revealed in an investigation, that any agent might lose a tiny bit of confidence, etc - and likely will brush it off and apply some paltry administrative penalty then move on.
By keeping him out of jail, Mi5 stood to gain more intelligence
They have not been for quite a while. They are the type of country where you go to jail over a meme.
What do you mean by that? The war had started by attacking the Western nations and the allies. The second front had opened when Germany attacked its former ally nearly 2 years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jean_Charles_de_Men...
The BBC is not only a domestic tool, but a global tool for controlling the image of the British state and perceived lack of corruption.
When people start to question their behaviour, up pops this kinda counter. The judges are part of the same system.
Because people like that are useful to get inside organisations full of other evil people and prevent those organisations doing even worse things.
I hate it, but that is the logic.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_median_ag...
And they control it by exposing that the MI5 is covering woman abusing pedophiles ?
Just like in the USA however there are laws about inciting violence and riots and people have been prosecuted for that.
The bs you're referring to is likely about the guy that went to jail for tweeting that a hotel of migrants should be burned down...during a race riot near the hotel.
Fires were set and people, including those calling for it, were prosecuted.
[EDITED TO ADD] I updated to the proper dates, and linked his eulogy.
As a European I am quite jealous of the freedoms the US population has.
Currently Europe is the continent of the easily frightened and mentally slow people and with the current course it will only get worse in that regard.
A government procecuting such crimes also leaves the impression that they have lost control on certain issues at least.
some of them, yes, most of them, no.
I'm sure they also gave him a stern talking-to
There has never been any occurrence of accountability for criminality, malfeasance or gross negligence in the UK for at least 100 years (Aberfan Disaster, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Grenfell, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list goes on).
They lead stay-behind operations in the recently liberated Italy(Operation Gladio) that funded Italian Mafia activities to act as strike breakers, assassinate union leaders.
They funded right-wing terrorist militias, ran false-flag operations, and started their early psychological warfare programs.
Your father resigned a couple years after the conclusion of the Indonesian Coup in which the CIA installed a right-wing military dictatorship, replacing a democratically elected government, that rounded up and murdered 1 Million communists while imprisoning a few million more for years. This event created a blueprint called the Jakarta Method which was used across the globe.
It's called protective custody. It's for their own safety.
The first one was arrested for questioning because he refused to talk to the police when they first attempted to communicate. He was subsequently released - he never went to jail.
The twitter post made it to national news because people actually listened to it and set fire to the building while people were inside.
These were the things that were said:
> It is crazy how secret services (...) now have a green pass
Step-function.
> think this is new
Step-function.
You're the only person describing a gradient ("it's worse now").
> Not knowing something isn't the same as knowing something that is not.
This is what I'm saying. That this kind of thing having been speculated on by a lot of people the GP above then believed doesn't mean those folks had actual information backing all of that up.
These are the ancestors of the people who flooded China with Opium, and killed more people in India then Hitler did in his time.
Did you not see the lengths they went to over complying over the Chagos Islands? To be 'seen' as a lawful country.
He worked in West Africa, where Russian proxies were trying to foster communist insurgencies.
He was a very, very decent person; maybe too decent. The straw that broke the camel's back, was the Shah of Iran.
"I am ready, Sir!"
"... in some violent, right-wing militia..."
"Oh, I'm way ahead on this assignment!"
6 July 2025
Daniel De SimoneInvestigations correspondent

PA Media/BBC
When the BBC revealed that MI5 had lied to three courts, the Security Service apologised for giving false evidence - vowing to investigate and explain how such a serious failure had occurred.
But on Wednesday, the High Court ruled that these inquiries were "deficient", ordering a new "robust" investigation. A panel of judges said they would consider the issue of contempt of court proceedings against individuals once that was complete.
Now we can detail how, over the past few months leading up to the judgment, MI5 continued to provide misleading evidence and tried to keep damning material secret.
The material gives an unprecedented insight into the internal chaos at MI5 as it responded to what has become a major crisis and test of its credibility.
At the heart of the case is the violent abuse of a woman by a state agent under MI5's control. After the BBC began investigating, MI5 attempted to cover its tracks - scattering a trail of false and misleading evidence.
The case started very simply: I was investigating a neo-Nazi, who I came to understand was also an abusive misogynist and MI5 agent.
After I contacted this man - known publicly as X - in 2020 to challenge him on his extremism, a senior MI5 officer called me up and tried to stop me running a story.
The officer said X had been working for MI5 and informing on extremists, and so it was wrong for me to say he was an extremist himself.
It was this disclosure, repeated in a series of phone calls, which the Security Service would later lie about to three courts as it attempted to keep X's role and identity shrouded in secrecy.
During the phone calls with me, MI5 denied information I had about X's violence, but I decided to spend more time investigating. What I learned was that X was a violent misogynist abuser with paedophilic tendencies who had used his MI5 role as a tool of coercion.
He had attacked his girlfriend - known publicly as "Beth" - with a machete, and abused an earlier partner, whose child he had threatened to kill. He even had cannibal fantasies about eating children.


Beth, who was terrorised and coerced by X, has called for a public apology from MI5
When I challenged both X and MI5 with our evidence, the government took me and the BBC to court in early 2022. They failed to stop the story but did win legal anonymity for X.
Arguing for secrecy in a succession of court proceedings, the Security Service told judges it had stuck to its core policy of neither confirming nor denying (NCND) informants' identities, including during conversations with me. Crucially, this stance allowed it to keep evidence secret from "Beth", who had taken MI5 to court.
The service aggressively maintained its position until I produced evidence proving it was untrue - including a recording of one of the calls with a senior MI5 officer.
Finally accepting it had provided false evidence, MI5's director general Sir Ken McCallum said: "We take our duty to provide truthful, accurate and complete information very seriously, and have offered an unreserved apology to the court."
Two investigations were commissioned: an internal MI5 disciplinary inquiry, and an external review by Sir Jonathan Jones KC, who was once the government's chief lawyer. This latter review was personally commissioned by the Home Secretary Yvette Cooper and MI5's director general.
Both of these concluded that the original false evidence was not due to dishonesty by MI5 or any of its officers. They effectively put it down to mistakes, both personal and systemic.
But these two inquiries quickly began to fall apart.
The government initially refused to provide both reports in full to the court.
Like many cases involving MI5, this one was held partly in secret to allow the government to use evidence which it says is too sensitive to be discussed in open hearings.
Access to the secret, closed part of the case was only available to the government, the judge and security-cleared barristers known as special advocates who were representing the BBC - but who were not allowed to communicate directly with us.
The government said it would not be providing any closed evidence about the two inquiries to the judge or the special advocates.
Instead, it provided an "open" version of Sir Jonathan's external review, with apparently sensitive material edited out, and it purported to provide a full account of the internal inquiry in a witness statement by MI5's director general of strategy - known as Witness B.
Sir Jonathan wrote that he was "satisfied" that the open version was a "fair and accurate" account of his full review. Witness B, third-in-command at the Security Service, said in his statement: "I am satisfied that there is nothing in the closed material that has been excluded from the open report which prevents MI5 from providing the court with a frank and accurate account."

Getty Images
The High Court ruled that the explanations for MI5's false evidence were "deficient"
During hearings, the government argued against disclosing secret material to the court. It eventually agreed to hand over the secret version of Sir Jonathan's review, and then was ordered to disclose the internal investigation report described by Witness B, along with policy documents and notes of interviews with MI5 officers.
When the disclosure came, it was clear why MI5 was so keen to keep it secret: the summaries, including the one from MI5's third-in-command, were not fair or accurate. Key information had been withheld, which undermined their conclusions.
In short, the court was still being misled.
At the same time, in response to the inquiries, I was submitting new evidence which proved that some of the claims made by the two reviews were false.
Neither the internal investigation nor Sir Jonathan Jones contacted me, despite the fact I was the only other person who really knew what had been said in all the phone calls at the centre of the case.
The two official reviews concluded that the senior officer who called me - Officer 2 - failed to recall telling me that X was an agent.
"There is nothing surprising in this narrative, which is ultimately about the fallibility of memory in the absence of a written record," as the Security Service put it in legal submissions.
The Jones review said that, because no formal record was made of the calls, by the time MI5 was preparing evidence the "only first-hand evidence available was Officer 2's personal recollection".
Sir Jonathan said the officer's recollection was "uncertain", although it had hardened over time into a position that he had not departed from NCND.
But material that MI5 and the government sought to keep secret shows that Officer 2 gave a detailed recollection of the conversation with me - until I exposed it as false.
His recollection was contained in a note of an internal MI5 meeting, arranged to discuss what to tell the special advocates and the court about the conversations with me. In it, the officer insisted he did not depart from NCND and gave a melodramatic account of my "long pauses" as I said I needed the story, before I eventually became cooperative and said I had "seen the light".
This was all untrue. He also falsely claimed I had revealed that I had spoken to X's former girlfriend, when I had done no such thing.


The note also showed that Officer 2 had told colleagues that he persuaded me to drop the story by implying that agent X was being investigated by MI5 as an extremist. This was the exact opposite of what he had in fact told me, which was that X was an MI5 agent rather than a real extremist.
Sir Jonathan was aware of the full version of this elaborate false account, but it was absent from the unclassified version given to the court and the BBC.
The MI5 internal review also claimed that Officer 2 had a lapse of memory.
It said that Officer 2 had told another officer - a key figure involved in preparing the Security Service's false evidence for the court, known as Officer 3 - that he could not remember whether he had departed from NCND.
In his statement to court, Witness B - MI5's director general of strategy - said Officer 2 had said "they could not recall the details" of the conversations with me but "did not think they had departed from NCND" and believed "they would have remembered if they had done so".
But an internal note by Officer 3, written after his discussion with Officer 2, contained a very different account.
It stated unequivocally that "we did not breach NCND" and that the contact with me "was prefaced with confirmation that this conversation was not on the record".
It also stated that, "after being initially fairly bullish, De Simone said that he acknowledged the strength of the argument, and agreed to remove those references".
All three claims were false, including about the conversations being off the record, something now accepted by MI5.
The evidence showed specific false claims being presented as memories - not the absence of memory the two inquiries said they found.
The question of memory was so important because the court was told that written records were not available.
Witness B - MI5's third-in-command - said the internal investigation established that Officer 2 had "updated colleagues within MI5" about the conversations with me, but that "there was no evidence identified of any written record being made, by Officer 2 or anyone else".


"The fact of the matter was that Officer 2 was reliant on personal recollection alone which inevitably carries a degree of inherent uncertainty," Witness B said in his statement to court.
Sir Jonathan gave the same impression in his review.
But the secret material MI5 was forced to hand over proved this was false. There were several written records consistent with what had really happened - that MI5 had chosen to depart from NCND and that several people were aware of it.


There was a decision log.
There were notes of conversations with Agent X himself.
There were emails.
The decision log showed that, just after the authorisation took place, a formal record was created saying the plan was to call the BBC and "reveal the MI5 link to X". The log then noted: "This was discussed with Officer 2 who subsequently approached the BBC to begin this conversation."
In an internal email, after I had said I would not include X in an initial story, one of X's handling team reported this development to other MI5 officers and accurately described the approach to me, namely that Officer 2 had claimed my proposed story was "incorrect" and the rationale for this was that most of the material was as a "direct result of his tasking" as an MI5 agent.
Notes of calls and meeting with Agent X show he approved the plan to reveal his MI5 role and was kept updated about the calls. In a later meeting with him, MI5 recorded that he was "happy" to meet with me, which was an offer MI5 had made and I ignored.
But it showed that MI5 and X were well aware of the NCND departure, because the Security Service would obviously only try to arrange a meeting with someone like X if they were an agent.


In a telling note, MI5 said X thought that a meeting with me would "hopefully serve to counter some of the conclusions that the journalist had reached about X". This is a violent, misogynistic neo-Nazi, a danger to women and children, yet MI5 wanted to do PR for him with a journalist.
These records and others show that the handling team for agent X understood there had been an NCND departure. This was unsurprising as the calls with me at the time made it clear that his case officers knew what was happening.
But the internal investigation report records how, as MI5 was preparing to take the BBC to court to block our story on X, one officer went around convincing colleagues that no such departure had ever taken place.
Officer 3 spoke several times to a member of the agent-handling team within MI5 - known as Officer 4 - regarding what had been said to me about X.
"We have already named him pal," said Officer 4, according to Officer 4's evidence to the investigation and Officer 3 replied: "I can categorically tell you we didn't".
After these conversations, Officer 4 said he felt the other officer had put him "back in his box". Other members of the handling team thought what Officer 3 was saying was "odd" and "weird".
MI5 has given completely contradictory explanations for how the false claim about not departing from NCND had got into its witness statement.

Reuters
MI5 offered an "unreserved apology" to the court for its false evidence
The claim was given to court by an officer known as Witness A, acting as a corporate witness - meaning he was representing the organisation rather than appearing as someone necessarily involved personally in the events.
When the government was trying to stop the BBC publishing its story about X in 2022, the BBC's special advocates asked how Witness A could be so sure that NCND had not been breached.
The government's lawyers said "Witness A spoke to the MI5 officer who had contact with the BBC" - meaning Officer 2 - and the officer had said he neither confirmed nor denied agent X's role. The lawyers' answers strongly appeared to suggest that the pair had even spoken at the time of the calls with me.
After we exposed Witness A's false evidence, the lawyers' answers created a problem for MI5 as it either suggested Officer 2 had lied all along - or that he and Witness A were both lying.
It has since been claimed that the men did not speak to each other at the time of the calls with me.
Despite not reconciling these contradictory accounts, the investigation concluded "the parties were collectively doing their best to prepare a witness statement that was accurate".
Officer 2 claimed that he had never departed from NCND before and said that was a key reason why he would have recalled doing so.
But new evidence I submitted to court showed he had also told me whether or not five other people I was investigating were working with the Security Service. One of them was an undercover MI5 officer - one of the most sensitive and memorable details an officer could disclose.
Officer 2 had invited me to meet this undercover officer, just as he had offered me the chance to meet Agent X. I had not pursued either offer, which I thought were a crude attempt at pulling me into MI5's orbit.
Indeed, the internal MI5 material suggests that its officers wrongly believe that the role of journalists is to be cheerleaders for the Security Service. I was variously described as "bullish", "stubborn", "awkward", and not "as on board as other journalists".


X physically and sexually abused Beth, attacking her with a machete
They said, before their involvement with me, the BBC was seen as "friendly" and "supportive" of MI5. In reality, journalists like me are here to scrutinise and challenge the organisation.
The five other NCND departures were not apparently uncovered by MI5's internal investigators, nor by Sir Jonathan Jones.
Disclosing agent X's role would have been memorable and unusual on its own.
But the fact there were also departures on NCND relating to five other people made the chain of events even more extraordinary, and made any claimed loss of memory by Officer 2 – and in MI5 more widely – simply unbelievable.
Both inquiries failed to speak to key people who were on the calls they were supposed to be investigating. Neither of them spoke to me - but there were other omissions too.
Sir Jonathan's review wrongly claimed that "only Officer 2 had been party to the calls" with me. In fact, Officer 2 had invited another senior officer to join one of the calls. He introduced himself by saying: "I head up all counter-terrorism investigations here."
He referred to my earlier "conversations" with Officer 2 and was plainly aware of their content - he even made a specific pun about something connected to X.
While MI5's internal investigation was aware that the head of counter-terror investigations had joined one of the calls and mentioned it in their secret report, investigators never bothered interviewing him.
After I submitted new evidence, MI5 was forced to speak to him - but the internal investigators concluded there was nothing to show he knew about NCND departures.
Sir Jonathan had also failed to speak to the MI5 officer at the centre of the case, Officer 2. He had simply adopted the conclusions of the internal inquiry - in which MI5 was investigating itself.
It emerged during the court case that Sir Jonathan did speak to MI5 director general Sir Ken McCallum for his investigation. But when the BBC's special advocates requested any notes of the interview, they were told that none existed.
"MI5's job is to keep the country safe," Sir Ken said after the High Court judgement. "Maintaining the trust of the courts is essential to that mission."
Because of this case, the courts have made plain that MI5's practices should change. The government says it is reviewing how the service prepares and gives evidence.
Because NCND has been abandoned in relation to Agent X, Beth will now have a fairer trial of her legal claim against MI5. The monolithically consistent way in which the policy has been presented, including in a string of important cases, has been shown to be untrue.
This has become a story about whether MI5 can be believed, and about how it uses its privileged position to conceal and lie.
But in the beginning - and in the end - it is a story about violence against women and girls, about the importance placed on that crucial issue by the state, and about how covering up for abusive misogynists never ends well.