I don't understand why this isn't more popular. For most areas, I'd gladly take a garbage collector over manual memory management or explicit borrow checking. I think the GC in D was one of it's best features, but it's downfall nonetheless as everyone got spooked by those two letters.
I've used OCaml a bit and found various issues with it:
* Terrible Windows support. With OCaml 5 it's upgraded to "pretty bad".
* The syntax is hard to parse for humans. Often it turns into a word soup, without any helpful punctuation to tell you what things are. It's like reading a book with no paragraphs, capitalisation or punctuation.
* The syntax isn't recoverable. Sometimes you can add a single character and the error message is essentially "syntax error in these 1000 lines".
* Ocamlfmt is pretty bad. It thinks it is writing prose. It will even put complex `match`es on one line if they fit. Really hurts readability.
* The documentation is super terse. Very few examples.
* OPAM. In theory... I feel like it should be great. But in practice I find it to be incomprehensible, full of surprising behaviours, and also surprisingly buggy. I still can't believe the bug where it can't find `curl` if you're in more than 32 Unix groups.
* Optional type annotation for function signatures throws away a significant benefit of static typing - documentation/understanding and nice error messages.
* Tiny ecosystem. Rust gets flak for its small standard library, but OCaml doesn't even have a built in function to copy files.
* Like all FP languages it has a weird obsession with singly linked lists, which are actually a pretty awful data structure.
It's not all bad though, and I'd definitely take it over C and Python. Definitely wouldn't pick it over Rust though, unless I was really worried about compile times.
I'm still surprised it can do so many things so well, so fast.
15% are people trying to sell their own language of choice sometimes with the argument that "it’s less scary, look".
I would be shocked if a mere 5% is actual engagement with the topic at hand sometimes while pointing flaws which are very real.
From there, I gather two things, the main one being: maybe Meta was right actually. People are that limited and the syntax should have been changed just to be done with the topic.
ML is a family of languages and we have StandardML with different implementations, OCaml with official path and JS path, F# and whatnot.
This is the problem for Lisp, too as there are many Lisps.
sounds superficially similar to Common Lisp
Nobody wants to effectively learn a lisp to configure a build system.
I would love to spend more time but even though Microsoft gives it plenty of support (nowhere near as much as C#), the community is just too small (and seems to have gotten smaller).
Looking at https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ numbers fall off pretty quickly from the top 5-7.
Guessing this is the same for OCaml, even if the language as such is nice.
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Precedence, nominal inheritance, HKTs, incoherent typeclasses make Scala much less aesthetically pleasant but much more productive.
> Fewer abstractions, and an easy to understand runtime
> Strong static guarantees
> Functional programming constructs. Especially pattern matching and sum types.
> Good performance
> Good documentation
I feel this is also Elm!
OCaml did become popular, but via Rust, which took the best parts of OCaml and made the language more imperative feeling. That's what OCaml was missing!
You'd be right.
"The key point here is our programmers are Googlers, they’re not researchers. They’re typically, fairly young, fresh out of school, probably learned Java, maybe learned C or C++, probably learned Python. They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software. So, the language that we give them has to be easy for them to understand and easy to adopt. – Rob Pike 1"
"It must be familiar, roughly C-like. Programmers working at Google are early in their careers and are most familiar with procedural languages, particularly from the C family. The need to get programmers productive quickly in a new language means that the language cannot be too radical. – Rob Pike 2"
Talking as someone who wrote OCaml at work for a while, the benefits of functional programming and the type guarantees that it's ilk provides cannot be understated; you only start to reach them, however, once most developers have shifted their way of thinking rather extremely, which is a time cost that that designers of Go did not want new Googlers to pay.
I think Richard Feldman [0] proposed some of the most reasonable theories as to why functional programming isn't the norm. Your language needs to be the platform-exclusive language for a widely used platform, have a killer application for a highly desired application domain, or be backed by a monster war-chest of marketing money to sway opinions.
Since Feldman's talk, Python has grown much faster in popularity in the sense of wide use in the market place... but mostly because it's the scripting language of choice for PyTorch and AI-adjacent libraries/tooling/frameworks which is... a killer application.
I like OCaml. I started evaluating functional programming in it by taking the INRIA course online. I spent the last four and half years working in Haskell. I've built some side projects in Zig. I was a CL stan for many years. I asked this question a lot. We often say, "use the best tool for the job." Often that means, "use the tool that's available."
I think languages like OCaml, Rust, Haskell etc can be "popular," but in the sense that people like to talk about them and want to learn them and be able to use them (at least, as trends come and go). It's different from "popular" as in, "widely adopted."
If one can stand a language that is just a little bit older, there is always Standard ML. It is like OCaml, but perfect!
Check out the most popular music today. Like the top ten songs currently. Do you think those are really the best songs out there?
Popularity is mostly driven by either trends or momentum.
It has basically all of the stuff about functional programming that makes it easier to reason about your code & get work done - immutability, pattern matching, actors, etc. But without monads or a complicated type system that would give it a higher barrier to entry. And of course it's built on top of the Erlang BEAM runtime, which has a great track record as a foundation for backend systems. It doesn't have static typing, although the type system is a lot stronger than most other dynamic languages like JS or Python, and the language devs are currently adding gradual type checking into the compiler.
I'd like to hear some practical reasons for preferring OCaml over F#. [Hoping I don't get a lot about MS & .NET which are valid concerns but not what I'm curious about.] I want to know more about day to day usage pros/cons.
I agree. OCaml is a complex language with very beginner-unfriendly documentation. In fact, I would even say it's unfriendly to engineers (as developers). The OCaml community prefers to see this language as an academic affair and doesn't see the need to attract the masses. E.g. Rust is an example of the opposite. It's a complex language, but it's pushing hard to become mainstream.
I couldn’t believe this was an actual bug in opam, and I found it: https://github.com/ocaml/opam/issues/5373
I don’t think that’s an opam bug, it’s an issue with musl, and they just happened to build their binaries with it.
Just taking the first example I can find of some auto-formatted OCaml code
https://github.com/janestreet/core/blob/master/command/src/c...
It doesn't look more a soup of words than any other language. Not sure what's hard to parse for humans.
I couldn't agree more with the parent commenter about OCaml documentation. Functional programmers appear to love terseness to an almost extreme degree. Things like `first` are abbreviated to `fst`, which is just odd. Especially now that good IntelliSense means there is no real functional (heh) difference between typing `.fi` and pressing Tab, and typing `.fs` and pressing Tab.
The F# documentation is comparatively very spiffy and detailed, with plenty of examples[1][2][3].
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/dotnet/fsharp/language-ref...
[2]: https://fsharp.github.io/fsharp-core-docs/
[3]: https://fsprojects.github.io/fsharp-cheatsheet/fsharp-cheats...
> * Ocamlfmt is pretty bad. It thinks it is writing prose. It will even put complex `match`es on one line if they fit. Really hurts readability.
I suggest configuring ocamlformat to use the janestreet profile for better defaults.
> * Optional type annotation for function signatures throws away a significant benefit of static typing - documentation/understanding and nice error messages.
People should be providing .mli files, but don't. That said, an IDE with type hints helps this enormously. The VS Code plugin for OCaml is the best experience for noobs, hands down.
> OPAM
yes
This made me chuckle. I've had that thought before, shouldn't the default be a vector on modern devices? Of course other collection types are available.
just to give an idea how bad, until recently, you could not just go to ocaml.org and download ocaml for windows, you had to either download one for mingw or wsl
so for many it was just not installable, i.e. for many we didnt have ocaml for windows, until very very recently
This was my problem as well, the object oriented related syntax is just too much. ML of which caml is a version of, has really tight syntax. The “o” in ocaml ruins it imo.
Community is an interesting thing, and for some people I guess it is important. For me language is just a tool having coded for quite some time and seen communities come and go; don't care about being known or showing an example per se. If the tool on the balance allows me to write faster code, with less errors quicker and can be given to generic teams (e.g. ex Python, JS devs) with some in house training its a win. For me personally I just keep building large scale interesting systems with F#; its a tool and once you get a hang of its quirks (it does have some small ones) quite a good one that hits that sweet spot IMO.
My feeling however is with AI/LLM's communities and syntax in general is in decline and less important especially for niche languages. Language matters less than the platform, ecosystem, etc. Its easier to learn a language then ever before for example, and get help from it. Any zero cost abstraction can be emulated with more code generation as well as much as I would hate reviewing it. More important is can you read the review the code easily, and does the platform offer you the things you need to deliver software to your requirements or not and can people pick it up.
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Languages have features/constructs. It's better to look at what those are. And far more importantly: how they interact.
Take something like subtyping for instance. What makes this hard to implement is that it interacts with everything else in your language: polymorphism, GADTs, ...
Or take something like Garbage Collection. It's presence/absence has a large say in everything done in said language. Rust is uniquely not GC'ed, but Go, OCaml and Haskell all are. That by itself creates some interesting behavior. If we hand something to a process and get something back, we don't care if the thing we handed got changed or not if we have a GC. But in Rust, we do. We can avoid allocations and keep references if the process didn't change the thing after all. This permeates all of the language.
I personally love ML languages and would be happy to keep developing in them, but the ecosystem support can be a bit of a hassle if you aren't willing to invest in writing and maintaining libraries yourself.
OCaml has some high profile use at Jane Street which is a major fintech firm. Haskell is more research oriented. Both are cool, but wouldn't be my choice for most uses.
Many of the most popular languages are also the most hated. Many of the more niche languages are viewed the most favorably.
It is easy to dislike something yo are familiar with, and easy to be overoptimistic about something you don't know as well.
"the grass is always greener ... "
Ironically probably because it had the "O"bjects in it, "which was the style of the time"... something that has since dropped off the trendiness charts.
Yes! To add to that, the question itself is wrong. We should be asking, how is OCaml able to be so good without being popular? People get the whole thing backward.
The popular languages are typically popular first, then get good later as a result of that popularity. They have to work, they have to be good, they're too big to fail.
This is what happened with Java. It was marketed like crazy at first and only later got refined in terms of tooling and the JVM itself. The R programming language was a mess for data wrangling, but once it was popular, people built things like the tidyverse or the data.table library. The Python ecosystem was disaster with all different testing packages, build tools, and ways to create and manage virtual environments, until the relatively recent arrival of uv, more than three decades after the creation of Python itself. And then there's javascript that's had more money, blood, sweat, and tears poured into it to be improved in one way or another because that's what practically anything running in a browser is using.
I've never used it so can't speak from any experience, and unfortunately it doesn't seem particularly active (and doesn't mention a current status anywhere), and doesn't have a license, so shrug. When it's been posted here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40211891), people seemed pretty excited about it.
{Ecosystem, Functors} - choose 1
The similarities are fairly superficial actually. It’s just that Rust is less behind the PL forefront that people are used to and has old features which look impressive when you discover them like variants.
There is little overlap between what you would sanely use Rust for and what you would use Ocaml for. It’s just that weirdly people use Rust for things it’s not really suited for.
It has no dogmatic inclination towards functional. It has a very pragmatic approach to mutation.
If people start using the term AI, we better be living in I, Robot. Not whatever the hell this is.
Tangential rant. Sorry.
>have shifted their way of thinking rather extremely
What could I read to shift my way of thinking?
The signals & threads episode about OCaml strongly piqued my interest, and not because I have any JS delusions (they would never, lol).
I would politely disagree. Torch started in Lua, and switched to Python because of its already soaring popularity. Whatever drove Python's growth predates modern AI frameworks
Let's face it, syntax matters. We saw that with Elixir becoming much more popular than Erlang ever did. We saw it with TypeScript being able to introduce a fairly complex type system into JavaScript, and becoming successful among web devs by adapting to established ecosystem and offering a gradual approach, rather than forcing an entirely new, incompatible paradigm on it. The TypeScript story seems a little improbable in hindsight, but it was able to get there by offering an incremental path and making a lot of compromises (such as config options to allow less strict enforcement) along the way.
Personally, I think a new syntax for OCaml might actually be successful if done right. Sure, there have been multiple attempts (the "revised" syntax, Reason, etc.), but none of them are really willing to modernize in ways that would attract your average programmer. The toolchain also needs work to appeal to non-OCaml programmers.
The reason for why OCaml is not more popular, thus, is that this subset is small. The reason for this may be either (a) habit or (b) it's not that much better than other languages. I'm gravitating to (b). OCaml guys seem to be quite dogmatic for the wrong reasons.
Because plenty of people have been shipping great projects in Ocaml since it was released so it doesn’t seem to be much of an issue to many.
I doubt Ocaml will be surpassed soon. They just added an effect system to the multicore rewrite so all things being considered, they seem to be pulling even more ahead.
In 2025, Elixir is a beautiful system for a niche that infrastructure has already abstracted away.
Interactive Elixir (1.19.0) - press Ctrl+C to exit (type h() ENTER for help)
iex(1)> x = 1
1
iex(2)> x = 2
2
iex(3)>
Meanwhile, OCaml got rid of its global lock, got a really fast-compiling native toolchain with stable and improving editor tooling, and has a cleaner language design with some really powerful features unavailable to F#, like modules/functors, GADTs, effects or preprocessors. It somehow got immutable arrays before F#!
F# still has an edge on some domains due to having unboxed types, SIMD, better Windows support and the CLR's overall performance. But the first two are already in the OxCaml fork and will hopefully get upstreamed in the following years, and the third is improving already, now that the opam package manager supports Windows.
Every morning, I wake up and ask myself: why isn’t OCaml more popular? I mean, the language is not perfect, but the more I use it the more I feel like this old language had it all figured out, somehow. I mean, not in the literal sense: you write String.of_X instead of String.from_X because the language has French origins. But it is perfect in the sense that it has everything that is important to me, except popular adoption. OCaml has its quirks, its old age, but at the same time there is so much I appreciate about it.
I have some experience building amateur and professional software, in many different languages, and as a result I have collected a list of characteristics that I’ve come to appreciate over time. I think my journey into programming is different from many. I learned and adored functional programming before working in the industry, and while not my very first language, Haskell was important to me early on. Functional programming has allowed me to break big, complex problems down into subproblems that I know how to solve. It has made me a better thinker. Add to that the static guarantees of Haskell, which makes the mental overhead much lower than for other languages, and I am also more productive. Most importantly, with Haskell, I can focus more on the fun parts of programming.
However, Haskell’s issues lie in its immense complexity and slow compile times. I did say that Haskell lowers the mental overhead of programming, but that’s only if you use a small subset of the language. However because much of the community is very maximalist, introducing a lot of complexity into the code becomes inevitable. Much of the code you interact with is too “smart”, and becomes very hard to grok. Its runtime is also very complex, and there’s always the chance of running into notorious “space leaks”, that are extremely hard to debug.
At some point, I started exploring a language that is probably the polar opposite to Haskell: Go. With Go, I learned to appreciate simplicity and low-levels of abstractions, a good set of tooling, fast performance and fast compilation speed. I also started to appreciate good documentation that is easily available offline. The culture around Go also places a lot of value on simple solutions, which made interacting with the ecosystem easier. I can jump into any code base and understand what is happening.
Over time, I also grew to hate the issues that come with the language being so conservative: it is verbose in its error handling yet manages to be fragile. At the same time, it doesn’t have explicit null checks. These factors combined makes Go quite unpleasant and easy to write buggy code in. I also found myself missing a REPL or fast way of interacting with the program. The language is “predictably disappointing”, which I guess is a good thing. However, the solutions to those disappointments have been around before the language was even created and I am just left feeling that these solutions could have been implemented, and the compiler would not be much more complex as a result. It just genuinely felt like the Go language designers didn’t want to engage with any of the ideas coming from functional programming. But I digress.
From these experiences, a list of features I consider to be “good” features in a general programming language started to emerge:
And then, enter OCaml. This language just checks so many boxes:
I’m left feeling that the authors of OCaml have good taste. It is an old language, and there are a few features that could probably be left out like the OOP-related features, and some libraries in the ecosystem over-complicate things like in Haskell. But overall, it’s just damn good. There are a lot of other features I appreciate about OCaml that I didn’t share. But to summarize why I love it: the right balance between simple and expressive, good documentation and good tooling.
1. Interop with C# is great, but interop for C# clients using an F# library is terrible. C# wants more explicit types, which can be quite hard for the F# authors to write, and downright impossible for C# programmers to figure out. You end up maintaining a C#-shell for your F# program, and sooner or later you find yourself doing “just a tiny feature” in the C# shell to avoid the hassle. Now you have a weird hybrid code base.
2. Dotnet ecosystem is comprehensive, you’ve got state-of-the web app frameworks, ORMs, what have you. But is all OOP, state abounds, referential equality is the norm. If you want to write Ocaml/F#, you don’t want to think like that. (And once you’ve used discriminated unions, C# error-handling seems like it belongs in the 1980’ies.)
3. The Microsoft toolchain is cool and smooth when it works, very hard to wrangle when it doesn’t. Seemingly simple things, like copying static files to output folders, require semi-archaic invocations in XML file. It’s about mindset: if development is clicking things in a GUI for you, Visual Studio is great (until it stubbornly refuses to do something) ; if you want more Unix/CLI approach, it can be done, and vscode, will sort of help you, but it’s awkward.
4. Compile-times used to be great, but are deteriorating for us. (This is both F# and C#.)
5. Perf was never a problem.
6. Light syntax (indentation defines block structure) is very nice until it isn’t; then you spend 45 minutes how to indent record updates. (Incidentally, “nice-until-it-isn’t” is a good headline for the whole dotnet ecosystem.
7. Testing is quite doable with dotnet frameworks, but awkward. Moreover. you’ll want something like quickcheck and maybe fuzzing; they exist, but again, awkward.
We’ve been looking at ocaml recently, and I don’t buy the framework/ecosystem argument. On the contrary, all the important stuff is there, and seems sometimes easier to use. Having written some experimental code in Ocaml, I think language ergonomics are better. It sort of makes sense: the Ocaml guys have had 35 years or so to make the language /nice/. I think they succeeded, at least writing feels, somehow, much more natural and much less inhibited than writing F#.
# let foo x = x#frob;;
val foo : < frob : 'a; .. > -> 'a = <fun>
Whether those features are more valuable to you than the ability to tap into .NET libraries depends largely on what you're doing.
Bigger native ecosystem. C#/.net integration is a double edged sword: a lot of libraries, but the libraries are not written in canonical F#.
A lot of language features F# misses, like effect handlers, modules, GADTs etc.
C++ 100 19.57s
Rust 96 20.40s
F# 95 20.52s
Nim 75 26.04s
Julia 64 30.40s
Ocaml 48 41.07s
Haskell 41 47.64s
Chez 39 49.53s
Swift 33 58.46s
Lean 7 278.88s
Tarjan, n = 10
Nyx - Apple M4 Max - 12 performance and 4 efficiency cores
n! * 2^n = 3,715,891,200 signed permutations
score = gops normalized so best language averages 100
time = running time in seconds
I nearly settled on OCaml. After AI warning me that proper work-stealing parallelism is a massive, sophisticated project to code properly, the 40 lines of OCaml code I wrote that beat available libraries is my favorite code file in years.
Nevertheless, once one understands lazy evaluation in Haskell, it's hard to use any other language. The log slowdown for conventional use of a functional data structure becomes a linear speedup once one exploits persistence.
But you can have a data structure that is more like vector under the hood while still supporting efficient copy-with-modifications. Clojure vectors, for example.
On the other hand, you could get ocaml for Windows from Microsoft ever since 2005.
One of the things people often neglect to mention in their love letters to the language (except for Anil Madhavapeddy) is that it actually feels UNIXy. It feels like home.
That's like complaining that unsafe{} breaks Rust's safety guarantees. It's true in some sense, but the breakage is in a smaller and more easily tested place.
Do you mean Kubernetes?
My mental model of Erlang and Elixir is programming languages where the qualities of k8s are pushed into the language itself. On the one hand this restricts you to those two languages (or other ports to BEAM), on the other hand it allows you to get the kinds of fall over, scaling, and robustness of k8s at a much more responsive and granular level.
{
const int x = 1;
{
const int x = 2;
}
}
iex(1)> x = 1
1
iex(2)> f = fn () -> x end
#Function<43.113135111/0 in :erl_eval.expr/6>
iex(3)> x = 2
2
iex(4)> f.()
1Considering it only impacts a fairly small subset of the language, could you explain how it supposedly ruins everything?
I feel a new simple ocaml like language that just compiled to Go would be really popular, really fast. And it would not even need to build a ecosystem, as Go already have all the things you need.
Something like what Gleam is for Erlang.
There's nothing inherently wrong with using Jane Street's stdlibs if you miss the goodies they provide, but be aware the API suffers breaking changes from time to time and they support less targets than regular OCaml. I personally stopped using them, and use a few libraries from dbunzli and c-cube instead to fill the gaps.
I'm not saying that Rust feels like Ocaml as some are interpreting, I said Rust is more imperative feeling, they're not the same. The reason Rust has had success bringing these features to the mainstream where Ocaml has not, I believe, is because Rust does not describe itself as a functional language, where as Ocaml does, right up front. Therefore, despite Rust having a reputation for being difficult, new learners are less intimidated by it than something calling itself "functional". I see it all the time. By the time they learn Rust, they are ready to take on a language like Ocaml, because they've already learned some of the best parts of that language via Rust.
Note my comment about their similarities is not at the level of borrow checkers and garbage collectors.
This, at least for me, brings the act of writing a specific piece of code more inline with how I think about the system as a whole. I spend less energy worrying about the current state of the world and more about composing small, predictable operations on relationships.
As for what you can read, I find it's just best to get going with something like OCaml or F# and write something that can take advantage of that paradigm in a relatively straightforward way, like a compiler or something else with a lot of graph operations. You'll learn pretty quickly what the language wants you to do.
As far as I could tell, it had to do with two things. First, Python is notoriously dynamic and extensible, making it possible to implement "sloppy" syntax like advanced slicing or dataframes. But also, those guys had lots of pre-existing C and Fortran code, and Python had one of the easiest extensibility APIs to wrap it as high-level packages. And with IPython, you had a nice REPL with graphing to use all that from, and then of course notebooks happened.
As for missing language features, they can also be a double-edged sword. I slid down that slippery slope in an earlier venture with Scala. (IIRC mostly implicits and compile times).
Talk about "immutable by default". Talk about "strong typing". Talk about "encapsulating side effects". Talk about "race free programming".
Those are the things that programmers currently care about. A lot of current Rust programmers are people who came there almost exclusively for "strong typing".
I certainly agree that SML isn't really a production language, though.
It had boosts from Django... but it never had Rails' level of popularity. You kinda have to be first-to-market and that good to get the "killer app" effect.
It's also been integrated as the scripting language for several popular software pacakges (Blender comes to mind).
Machine learning and now... "AI"; seems to be a market cornered by Python quite a bit.
Also it didn’t employ a marketing team to work on outreached and write fancy comments here and some people who have used it for 10 minutes are apparently offended by the Pascal-like syntax and can’t stop discussing it on every Ocaml discussion making every actual users tired.
For example, there is no OAuth2 client library for OCaml [1]
"Type Providers" are an example of such negligence btw, it's something from the early 2010's that never got popular even though some of its ideas (Typed SQL that can generate compile-time errors) are getting traction now in other ecosystems (like Rust's SQLx).
My team used SQL Providers in a actual production system, combined with Fable (to leverage F# on the front end) and people always commented how our demos had literally 0 bugs, maybe it was too productive for our own good.
The throughput loss stems from a design which require excessive communication. But such a design will always be slow, no matter your execution model. Modern CPUs simply don't cope well if cores need to send data between them. Neither does a GPU.
Data is immutable and thats much more important than whether local variables can be modified imo.
If a language makes "unboxed types" a feature, a specific distinction, and has to sell "removing global lock" as something that is a massive breakthrough and not table stakes from 1.0, it can't possibly be compared to F# in favourable light.
* Compile time is only ok. On par with C++.
* Async has a surprisingly number of footguns and ergonomic issues.
* There's no good solution to self-borrowing or partial borrows.
* While using macros is fine, writing them is pretty awful. Fortunately you rarely need to do that. Relatedly it is missing introspection support.
* Sometimes the types and lifetimes get very complex.
But overall I still much prefer it to OCaml. The syntax is much nicer, it's easier to read, the ecosystem and tooling are much better, the documentation is much better, and it actively hates linked lists!
I don't know if AI can change that but when using python, there is a feeling that there is an awesome quality library for just about anything.
F# is not stagnant thankfully, it gets updates with each new version of dotnet (though I haven't checked what is coming with dotnet 10), but I don't recall anything on the level of the above Ocaml changes in years.
I know there are great many Polish people in the world, but why it matters so much in this case? They could have been any nationality, even French!
It hit the front page of Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, made the rounds on Hacker news, etc... (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=86246)
Django was also very popular at the time.
I had already learned Basic, C++, Java, and C#. I wanted to add a dynamic scripting language that was cross-platform under my belt.
A lot of my peers were in the same boat.
Python seemed at the time, to be the only general purpose scripting language that was easy to use on multiple platforms.
I had heard bad things about Perl being write only, and Ruby being tough to deploy, I also found it hard to read. (Which is a shame they are wonderful languages, though Ruby is dog slow, Python is slow too, but Ruby is worse somehow).
IIRC Google and some other large companies were pushing it as one of their official languages.
Right as Python was rocketing in popularity, Go came out, and I also heard a lot of good things about Clojure (they seemed neck and neck in popularity from my incorrect perspective at the time, lol).
I'd really like to hear more about this. From what I've used of F# and OCaml, both languages are around 95% the same.
While it's not yet standard nearly all Standard ML implementations support what has become known as "Successor ML" [0]. A large subset of Successor ML is common to SML/NJ, MLton, Poly/ML, MLKit and other implementations.
That includes record update syntax, binary literals, and more expressive patterns among other deficiencies in Standard ML.
For me the two big remaining issues are:
1) There's only limited Unicode support in both the core language and the standard library. This is a big issue for many real-world programs including these days the compilers for which SML is otherwise a wonderful language.
2) The module system is a "shadow language" [0] which mirrors parts of SML but which has less expressiveness where modules cannot be treated as first-class values in the program. Also if you define infix operators in a module their fixity isn't exported along with the function type. (Little annoyance that gets me every time I am inclined to write Haskell-style code with lots of operators. Though maybe that's just another hint from the universe that I shouldn't write code like that.) Of course, the fix to that would be a fundamentally different language; not a revised SML.
[0] http://mlton.org/SuccessorML
[1] https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-domain-of-shadows.htm...
There might be some power in attracting all the people who happen to love ocaml, if there are enough of competent people to staff your company, but that's more a case of cornering a small niche than picking on technical merits
What applications are written in OCaml? All I can think of (which says more about me than it does about OCaml) is the original Rust compiler.
Even Haskell has Pandoc and Xmonad.
Beginners face the following problems: there's multiple standard libraries, many documents are barely more than type signatures, and data structures aren't printable by default. Experts also face the problem of a very tiny library ecosystem, and tooling that's often a decade behind more mainstream languages (proper gdb support when?). OCaml added multicore support recently, but now there is the whole Eio/Lwt/Async thing.
I used to be a language nerd long ago. Many a fine hour spent on LtU. But ultimately, the ecosystem's size dwarfs the importance of the language itself. I'm sympathetic, since I'm a Common Lisp man, but I don't kid myself either: Common Lisp isn't (e.g.) Rust. I like hacking with a relic of the past, and that's okay too.
I always wanted to learn Elixir but never had a project where it could show it strengths. Good old PHP works perfectly fine.
Also corporations like their devs to be easily replaceable which is easier with more mainstream languages, so it is always hard for "newer" languages to gain traction. That said I am totally rooting for Elixir.
> it actually feels UNIXy. It feels like home.
They use single dashes for long options.
This is not home.
Thing is, if I sketch something in pseudocode, I should be able to translate it to any mainstream programming languages. With Rust I can't just do that, I have to bend the problem to fit the way the language works.
C# has lots of anti-features that F# does not have.
Otherwise in most mainstream platforms there is enough libraries for most things already; which includes .NET. It's rare not to find a well maintained lib for the majority of use cases in general whether it is .NET, Java, Go, etc which is why w.r.t long term risk a used platform is more important than the syntax of a language and its abstractions. Web frameworks, SDK's, DB drivers, etc etc are all there and generally well tested so you won't be stuck if you adopt F#. I evaluate on more objective metrics like performance, platform improvements, compatibility with other software/hardware, etc etc. It isn't that risky to adopt F# IMO (similar risk to .NET in general) - to me its just another syntax/tool in my toolbelt with some extra features than usual if I'm developing things typical in that .NET/Java/Go abstraction level.
The current tool to wrap your bytecode with a VM so that it becomes standalone is Burrito[1], but there's some language support[2] (I think only for the arch that your CPU is currently running? contra Golang) and an older project called Distillery[3].
1: https://github.com/burrito-elixir/burrito
The latter going much further than most mainstream languages.
Generally, you want stuff where you have to build a fairly large core from scratch. Most programs out there doesn't really fit that too well nowadays. We tend to glue things more than write from nothing.
Let's not dismiss that their solution to remove the global lock has been both simpler than Python's (better funded?) ongoing work and backwards compatible; and the multicore support came with both a memory model with strong guarantees around data races, and effect handlers which generalize lightweight threads.
I agree that lack of unboxed types is a fatal flaw for several domains (Worse, domains I care about! I usually consider Rust/Go/.NET for those.) But when the comparison with OCaml is favourable to F#, the gap isn't much wider than just unboxed types. F# has an identity crisis between the ML parts and the CLR parts, its C# interop is decaying as the ecosystem evolves, and newer .NET APIs aren't even compatible with F# idioms (here's a .NET 6+ example [1]).
[1]: https://sharplab.io/#v2:DYLgZgzgNAJiDUAfA9gBwKYDsAEBlAnhAC7o...
Where's the equivalent to https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.2.0/... ?
* Crates.io is an unmoderated wasteland of infinite transitive dependency chaos
But my "favourite":
* It's 2025 and allocator-api (or its competitors) is still in nightly only and no sign of stabilizing
I work almost exclusively in Rust, and I like the language but in many respects a) Rust is the language that tokio ate, and b) it has been deluged with people coming from the NodeJS/NPM ecosystem doing Web Scale Development(tm) and its terrible practices around dependency management.
Unfortunately lots of the more advanced stuff seems to be blocked on C# team making a decision. They want a smooth interop story.
But F# remains a solid choice for general purpose programming. It's fast, stable and .NET is mainstream.
Do you mean the comic was responsible, or the comic explains why Python is popular? It is definitely the ecosystem. As you said its general purpose. It is used for numerical computing and visualisation, web apps, GUIs, sysadmin. Even a reasonably popular DVCS is written in Python.
Go was made by Google flawed, but with clarity of purpose and consistently usable libraries.
.NET spent years forked into framework and core and unclear open source future.
Java struggled to scale down and Oracle caused similar distrust as Microsoft.
F# is worse because the type inferencing isn't as good. You need to type annotate in more places. It's a drag, because it feels like a missed opportunity to let the machine do work for you.
Additionally, one of the most pleasant and unique features of OCaml, strong named arguments, doesn't exist in F# (except in methods or whatever). Most programming languages don't have this (or it's hamfisted like in more dynamic languages) so it doesn't seem like a loss, unless you are very cozy with them in OCaml.
(I'm bitter about this one because named arguments give safety and convenience. But when you combine them with currying it's like 4 or 5 design patterns that are elegantly provided for you. You just do it implicitly, without ever having to study a book about using them.)
Finally, F# brings back the NULL problem that OCaml worked so hard to eradicate.
For example, in Reason, a function is:
let x: (int, int) => int = (a, b) => a + b;
fn x(a, b int): int {
a + b
}
let x = fn(a, b int): int {
a + b
}So that does seem to be a good use-case for the language.
Yeah, its more just extensions to support their use cases at scale. Think of it more as bleeding edge ocmal, once they work out kinks/concerns they'll get merged back into the language OR if it remains ultra specific it'll stay in oxcaml.
Not a complete own version lol
Regarding attracting talent, they've said they don't care about existing knowledge of OCaml as the language part is something they train staff on anyway. Their interviews are brutal from what I recall. I could be an OCaml expert and have no chance of making it through an interview without equal talent in high performance fintech and relevant mathematics.
> there's multiple standard libraries
Scala has a far more fragmented ecosystem with Cats, Scalaz, Zio and Akka. C++ and Java have a bunch of stdlib extensions like boost, Guava, Apache Commons etc.
> many documents are barely more than type signatures
Can be said of most of Java, Kotlin, Scala, Erlang etc etc. Just compiled javadocs, sometimes with a couple of unhelpful lines.
> data structures aren't printable by default
Neither they are in C++
I think the real reason it's not popular is that there are languages which solve more or less the same problems of system programming but look far more familiar to an avg. programmer who was raised on C++ and Java.
There is only one standard library and it shipped with the compiler.
> data structures aren't printable by default
So? That’s the case with most languages. Ocaml has a deriver to make types printable and a REPL which automatically prints for testing.
> tooling that's often a decade behind more mainstream languages
Opam is a fully featured package manager, dune works fine, bucks2 supports Ocaml.
> proper gdb support when?
Ocaml has had a rewindable debugger since approximately forever.
> OCaml added multicore support recently, but now there is the whole Eio/Lwt/Async thing.
Lwt was the default and everyone agrees eio is the future now that effects are there. Async is a Janestreet thing with pretty much no impact on the language outside of Janestreet.
Honestly, I maintained my initial point. Ocaml alleged frictions were always widely overstated.
When I was writing Ocaml professionally 15 years ago, there was no dune and no opam and it was already fairly easy to use the language.
If you use type guards correctly the performance can be surprisingly good. Not C/C++/Rust/Go/Java good, but not too far off either. This is definitely a corner-case though.
I know of a Haskell shop and everybody said they’d have a hell of a time finding people… but all them nerds were (and are) tripping over themselves to work there because they love Haskell… though some I’ve talked to ended up not liking Haskell in production after working there. There seems to be a similar dynamic, if a bit less extreme, in Elixir shops.
Normally the Unix/GNU opposition is irrelevant at this point, but you managed to pick one of the few significant points of difference.
Short options were a compromise to deal with the limits of the input hardware at the time. Double dashes were a workaround for the post-dash option car crash traditional Unix tooling allows because teletypes were so slow. There is nothing particularly Unixy about any of these options other than the leading hyphen convention.
OCaml using single hyphens is not un-Unixy.
If what you mean is the ability to think in terms of "first" and "rest", that's just an interface that doesn't have to be backed by a linked list implementation.
-- ghci> example
-- Triangular number 1 is 0
-- Triangular number 2 is 1
-- Triangular number 3 is 3
-- Triangular number 4 is 6
-- Triangular number 5 is 10
example = runEff $ \io -> evalState 0 $ \st -> do
for_ [1..5] $ \i -> do
n <- get st
let msg = "Triangular number " <> show i <> " is " <> show n
effIO io (putStrLn msg)
st += i
where
st += n = modify st (+ n)
[1] Tackling the Awkward Squad: monadic input/output, concurrency, exceptions, and foreign-language calls in Haskell
The grand design of BEAM is that you are copying data rather than passing it by reference. A copy operation severs a data dependency by design. Once the copy is handed somewhere, that part can operate in isolation. And modern computers are far better at copying data around than what people think. The exception are big-blocks-of-data(tm), but binaries are read-only in BEAM and thus not copied.
Sure, if you set up a problem which requires a ton of communication, then this model suffers. But so does your GPU if you do the same thing.
As Joe Armstrong said: our webserver is a thousand small webservers, each serving one request.
Virtually none of them have to communicate with each other.
These are usually defined with the [<Struct>] attribute over a regular type definition, or using the struct keyword before tuple/anonymous record types. Also, the original 'T option type now has a value-type successor 'T voption.
I would never.
LinkedIn Lists you say? (Sorry. (But not that sorry.))
Edit meta sidenote: in this modern meme world, it's virtually impossible to know if a typo is a typo or just a meme you haven't heard of yet.
I will turn in my Plan 9 install media and my copy of The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD Operating System at the nearest DEC service center.
Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. If by "unmoderated" you mean anyone can upload a crate without going through bureaucratic approvals processes then that seems like a good thing to me!
But you did remind me of one other majorly annoying thing about the crate system: the global namespace. It doesn't have the same security issues as Python's global package namespace, but it is really really annoying because you pretty much have to break large projects down into multiple crates for compile time reasons, and then good luck publishing those on crates.io. Plus you end up with a load of crate names like `myproject-foo`, `myproject-bar`, which is very verbose.
Oh and yeah, the Tokio situation is a bit sad.
Also the proliferation of some types of crates like error handling. This should really be in the standard library by now (or at least fairly soon). Any large project ends up with like 5 different error handling libraries just because dependencies made different choices about which to use. It's not a major issue but it is silly.
Overall though, still my favourite language by far.
But if you write without the escape hatches in both languages, in my experience the safety is exactly the same and the cost of that safety is lower in TypeScript.
A very common example I've encountered is values in a const array which you want to iterate on and have guarantees about. TypeScript has a great idiom for this:
``` const arr = ['a', 'b'] as const; type arrType = typeof arr[number];
for (const x of arr) { if (x === 'a') { ... } else { // Type checker knows x === 'b' } } ```
I haven't experienced the same with Ocaml
I don't build HFTs and my compilers are just for fun. None of my day jobs have ever been a situation where the smaller ecosystem and community of ocaml was offset by anything ocaml did better than the selected options like .net, Java, go, rails, C or anything else I've touched. Heck, I've written more zig for an employer than ocaml, and that was for a toy DSL engine that we never ended up using.
https://www.typescriptlang.org/play/?#code/DYUwLgBAHgXBAUBDO...
I've seen JS using lambdas instead of classic functions like that in the wild. And that Reason can be made more JS-idiomatic without changes to the syntax:
let x = (a: int, b: int): int => a + b;I wasn’t talking chronology of first release, just describing the overlap in hype cycles back then.
The comic was released in 2007, and started heading to the moon. Go came out around 2009, and almost instantly got traction.
Unless their hiring process has changed in the past few years, if you're a dev they're not hiring you for your financial skills, just general problem solving and software development ability. It is (was?) the usual Google-style algorithms/data structures rigamarole, but somewhat more challenging.
I wanted to use OCaml since 2002, since it was a GC'd language with good performance, achieving a lot with relatively few lines of code. Being a language nerd, I was (am?) positively inclined to the language. Yet there was always something that made it notably less pleasant to solve my current problem in than in than some other language.
If it had trouble getting traction with me, that's bad news.
Meanwhile the mainstream has progressed a lot since 2000. GC is the standard, closures are normal, pattern matching and destructuring are increasingly so. While HM-style type inference is not mainstream, local type inference is (and I'm no longer convinced that global type inference is the way). Algebraic data types aren't unusual anymore.
A few years back I just threw in the towel and went with Rust; this happened after I volunteered to improve OCaml's gdb support (including DWARF hell), which went nowhere. I wish Rust compiled faster, and a GC'd language is usually more productive for my problems, but in every other regard it stole what should have been OCaml's thunder. And when popular successor languages eventually appear, they'll do it even better.
It's as old as C. C and Go are the only two significant languages which end up constantly checking for errors like this.
Why must you call me out in this way? How did I wrong you, that I deserve this?
But you know what I mean. Some grace would be nice.
But even bog-standard business processes eventually find the need for data-processing, crypto and parsing - the use-cases where people code Elixir NIF's. That is why for example you have projects like html5ever_elixir for parsing HTML/XML. Another use case is crypto - you have NIF's for several crypto libraries. Data processing - there are NIF's for Rust polars.
And second, you're dismissing the fact that TypeScript is unsound, even worse it is so by design. Easy examples: uninitialized variables holding undefined when their type says they can't [1]; array covariance [2]; and function parameter bivariance, which is part of the TypeScript playground's own example on soundness issues [3] but at least this one can be configured away.
C# and Java made the same mistake of array covariance, but they have the decency of checking for it at runtime.
[1]: https://www.typescriptlang.org/play/?#code/DYUwLgBAHgXBB2BXA... [2]: https://www.typescriptlang.org/play/?#code/MYewdgzgLgBAllApg... [3]: https://www.typescriptlang.org/play/?strictFunctionTypes=fal...
As for your example, I agree that TypeScript unions and singleton types are powerful, but I can't see what are you speficially missing here that pattern matching and maybe an additional variant type doesn't get you in OCaml. You get exhaustiveness checking and can narrow the value down to the payload of the variant.
let f a ~x ~y b = a + x + y + b
let g = f ~y:1 (* g is closure with the argument named ~y filled in *)
let h = g 2 (* another closure with the first positional argument filled in *)
let int_15 = h 8 ~x:4 (* = g 2 8 ~y:4 = f ~y:1 2 8 ~x:4 *)
Python gets forked in other investment banks as well. I wouldn’t say that is evidence of any deficiencies, rather they just want to deal with their own idiosyncrasies.
The main user has been writing extensions to the compiler that they test before pushing for integration like they have done for the past twenty years or so. They publish these versions since last year.
Hardly a failure and certainly not something mandatory to keep things from failing over. Your initial comment is extremely disingenuous.
This was so difficult for the teams I work with that the person who became the team specialist in MSBuild, dotnet, and C# basically punched his ticket and received a couple of promotions. The work is so miserable and challenging that basically no one else Will take it.
I've struggled to understand why .net upgrades are so painful and laborious despite the maturity of the languages and ecosystems. I had assumed that, as with Powershell, C# and .net behind the scenes are undergoing enormous changes as Microsoft attempts to improve or add support for historically neglected platforms and hardware, and so I had assumed also that these were temporary problems, just badly managed growing pains on a path to major improvement, but I gather from your comment that the problem has a long history and is systemic. Awful.
MSBuild has been a huge source of the suffering I've experienced while working on these projects. The documentation is, in my experience, a nightmare: exhaustingly verbose, full of jargon, and uncanny in its ability to talk around an issue, concept, or functionality without clarifying anything conceptually or practically. I find this throughout Microsoft docs.
The difference is Go really focused on continuity and compatibility, while .NET didn’t.
(Rust has refcounting, but it's slow, and needing to handle cycles manually limits its usefulness.)
From a technical perspective, this is the overwhelming majority of what makes the Net happen. BEAM is great for that and many other things, like extremely reliable communication streams.
Use the right tool for the job. Rust sucks for high-level systems automation but that doesn’t make it any less useful than bash. It’s all about about use cases and Elixir fits many common use cases nicely, while providing some nice-to-haves that people often ask for in other common web dev environments.
> I can't see what are you speficially missing here that pattern matching and maybe an additional variant type doesn't get you in OCaml. You get exhaustiveness checking and can narrow the value down to the payload of the variant.
A couple things, being constrained to pattern matching in places where imperative programming would be more natural, having to declare lots of special purpose types explicitly vs being able to rely on ad hoc duck typing.
I don't think so. Upgrading to a newer major version of the C++ runtime essentially involves recompiling, unless you're dealing with an application that's 15 years or older. You can even instruct the compiler to use an older C++ standard if your code won't compile with the newer one. There is also an option to compile the runtime statically, though it is obviously not recommended.
.NET is a different story [1]
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/...
https://www.ponylang.io/ https://github.com/ponylang/ponyc
The Pony community is here:
https://ponylang.zulipchat.com/
Pony's garbage collection and runtime can yield performance faster than C/C++/Rust because the compiler eliminates data races at compile time, and thus no locks are needed.
It features implementations of Dmitri Vyukov (www.1024cores.net) algorithms for work stealing and Multi-producer single consumer queues that use only a single atomic instruction to read. The designer, Sylvan Clebsch, is an ex-game-developer and ex-high-frequency-trading-infrastructure engineering lead; he knew what he was doing when he designed the language for high performance on multicore systems.
On the other hand, you do have to re-wire your thinking to think in terms of Actors and their state, and this is kind of hard to wrap one's head around if you are used to Go's CSP or the popular async/await approaches -- it is a somewhat different paradigm.
Like I said, my information might be a hair out of date, but it's first-hand.
Everybody in the company is expected to be able to sling numbers in text on a computer super efficiently.
That said, I think this is somewhat unrelated to the idea of making linked lists disappear - Koka is still using linked lists, but optimising their allocation and deallocation, whereas Haskell can convert a linked list to an array and do a different set of optimisations there.
See: https://koka-lang.github.io/koka/doc/book.html#sec-fbip
I remember that in 01998 or 01999 I asked Andrew Tanenbaum, a different European CS professor, what he thought about Linux. His impression was still that it was some kind of hobbyist project for people who (paraphrasing here and reading between the lines) couldn't afford a real computer. So I suspect that, even when Caml became OCaml, its developers saw Linux as belonging to the same crowd as Microsoft Windows, rather than to the systems they were used to.
But even that Windows/Unix OS dichotomy didn't exist when the programming language was designed. They might have been thinking about Unix vs. VMS, or Unix vs. GCOS, or Unix vs. Oberon, or BSD vs. System V, but definitely not Linux vs. Windows.