They're pretty good, but not great. Just passive noise cancelling.

My AirPods Pros block noise better actually, but I have after-market foam eartips on them.

Regardless, the problem is less speakerphone music and more shrill child voices and screams. No eartips can block those frequencies well it seems.

A disinforming clickbait headline strikes again. This isn't about it being mandatory to use headphones, ala TNG "The Game". Rather it's about using speakers that broadcast sound for everyone to "enjoy". I haven't been molested and crushed^w^w^w^wflown in quite some time, but with the noise floor on airplanes being so high to begin with I'd imagine the result is much worse than somewhere that is at least quieter to start.

Blasting your phone at volumes louder than the ambient noise is social terrorism

It's a thing everywhere except very well-behaved places/countries. This means it's almost everywhere.

The last time I had an uncle blast his Doujin feed at full volume next to me, I suggested he lower the volume, he didn't care, so I blasted my own feed at louder volume. He got it then. Sadly people a few rows back did the same on the next train...

You should be able to report them to apple and google, lifetime smart phone ban.

Yes and no. I don't want to be a Karen, but also I think it's fair to not cause discomfort to others. Imagine if every flight was as noisy a city intersection. For 5 hours. And you can't hide.

1 of n problems.

I have definitely seen people use speakers in countries other than the USA.

I am astonished how many people now use speakerphone as their default interaction. On subway, go train, in grocery stores, on the streets, sometimes even in the office, they blast their conversations with zero care.

And so yes, I've definitely seen and experienced people watching inane tiktoks on speaker in subway or bus or airplane. It's the epitome of complete lack of empathy or self awareness to me, but I guess that's the way culture is going.

Join the conversation, works every time.

I don’t think United airlines has the authority to do that.

That is to say, do you really want a federal law passed about this? I vote we go with social shaming. Worked for cigarettes.

Last time I flew my family was very early to the gate; it was me, my wife, my 5 and 3 year old girls, and a very elderly lady in a wheelchair who was blasting Kendrick Lamar’s “Not Like Us” from her phone speakers.

> I never been in a flight, or train across Europe where passengers showed just lack of respect for the others.

In my European travels I’ve definitely seen it. It depends entirely on the region. Europe is a big place. I’ve encountered it in Asian countries too. Again, Asia is huge and diverse.

Not coincidentally, it’s the same in the United States. I’ve never seen this on the local commuter train with people traveling to and from work. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it on a flight (flight attendants did intervene and request they stop).

Let’s not try to make this into another “America bad” topic because this is not a uniquely American problem.

I was on a 2 hour flight this week. The guy in front of me listened to a political podcast on speaker that was loud enough it cut through my noise cancelling earbuds. There was absolutely no chance I was risking my safety calling him out on it in that scenario.

> usually get quickly pointed down by other passengers, personnel or security

I’ve never, not once, heard a member of staff ask someone to use headphones on transport.

From what I can tell, if no rule is enforced, about 2-5% of people think it's totally normal to scroll tiktok or instagram at full volume in public.

So on a crowded bus you've normally got 1 or 2. Behavior is actually much better on airplanes, usually (maybe 1-2 in ~150 passenger plane), and I have never seen someone who did not silence their phone after being asked politely by the attendant.

I want to echo the top comment in that post. Apple removing the headphone jack from iPhones was absolutely criminal.

For all siblings, I think parent was suggesting "while in flight". i.e. dropping them from 30k feet. Hence harsh...

Not harsh enough. They belong in the special level of hell reserved for child molesters and people who talk in the theatre.

And on hiking trails.

I was hiking in Zion. Large sign: be quiet, owls are nesting.

Multiple people with those speakers hanging off of their backpack: we don't care.

And even the rangers don't feel empowered to say anything anymore.

What's the threshold for sick?

It'll never happen becasue everything around travel is to hard to reschedule.

In America, a small number of people derive pleasure from being disruptive to everybody, and blasting music on public transit with captive audiences is a very "traditional" way of fucking with people and expressing your broad contempt for their society. I'd estimate that maybe one in five times you get on a city bus in America, you'll encounter somebody like this.

Very rarely does anybody call them out or otherwise try to reign it in, because you're as likely as not to be physically attacked and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not great.

It is - there are three groups of people that do this generally the completely self absorbed, people from places where it’s culturally acceptable, and people that like the feeling of empowerment that comes from inconveniencing others (the same people that will walk out into traffic with no light / crosswalk)

I've experienced it all over Europe. Trains with reserved seats tend to have a separate "silent car" for this reason.

That's because in Europe certain demographics don't catch many planes or trains. But they do catch the tube or the bus, so get on one of those and enjoy the experience.

Have you ever tried to sleep while the person next to you watches a movie at full volume?

NO TICKET

Harsh, but fair.

Seems like this flew right over a few heads.

> how about kicking sick people off of flights

Difficult for the airline to do given the myriad of health privacy adjacents.

> During flights? Sounds a bit harsh.

Sounds harsh to you.

Let the market decide.

Vote with your wallet and fly a different airline.

I'm behind this 100%.

I got a SARS virus flying to Udon Thani in 2019. We were seated next to two thai guys who were so sick they could barely sit up straight. We offered them help and treats because they looked like they were about to vomit.

Plane lands, next day I'm sick. I was laid up for 2 weeks with fever, the shits, and I had a weird spontaneous cough for over 1 month after I got better.

I bet most of that plane got sick, and it was so damn avoidable.

> beaches, busses, streets

Bus, sure. On beaches and streets you have the option of moving away. It’s obnoxious. But in the same category as a large group walking slowly.

I often see younger people in parks near me blasting loud music on speakers. It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful place. Especially when they’re playing explicit rap music with everyone’s families and children around.

I can guarantee you that's not only America's problem.

Happens in Canada too. Calling them out can be dangerous, people have been injured.

Agree. It’s funny to see comments trying to act like this never happens in Europe, only America.

Sure, but also you might be on a city bus for... half an hour? It's not pleasant to have someone blast noise but it's nothing like a multi-hour flight. Why bother?

Lol was wondering how long I would have to scroll before someone pointed out the obvious. People talking about the "collapse of the societal contract", like I wonder how that happened....

It didn't really work well with cigs until govs started banning smoking in restaurants, bars, etc. That said, the shaming was important for setting the social stage for such legal bans.

Shaming doesn’t always work. I’ve asked politely and been threatened in return by people that look dangerous. That made me want to avoid confrontation in the future.

I don't really want that. But I do sometimes fantasize about revoking some people's ability to use speakerphone or reply-all.

Good. You want to be an asshole? Do it in your car, driving alone, to your destination.

You might blame the airlines, but passengers have become more rude and entitled year after year. It's really everywhere now, not just on airplanes. I personally am fine with removing passengers who think they are entitled to annoy the rest of us when we can't just get up and leave the place.

The airlines could alway remove you for literally any reason. Even if it was discriminatory or otherwise illegal, you'd still definitely be getting off the plane, at least.

I've thought about doing that several times, seeing as they're already including me. Just need to become a bit more brazen of a person.

The ones with limited recourse are the flight crew who are trapped with you and a hundred other asshole for hours with no escape and very limited options in case of a serious disruption. If there is one space that has justification to act as temporary dictatorship, it's an aircraft in flight.

Look... if me and 199 other passengers are going to abide by restrictions we were informed about before we paid any money for a ticket, it's completely unfair that the authorities make an exception for one passenger who accepted the same contract we all did.

Arrest them on board, handcuff them and lead them away in handcuffs at the destination. No sympathy from me, especially since the only way the handcuffs route is going to happen is if the passenger in questions ignores the instructions from the flight crew.

I also have to note that on most flights, whether domestic or international, the it's already a criminal offence to ignore an instruction from the flight crew. The airline here did not need to make publish a new rule, they could have simply had the flight crew inform the annoying passenger.

On something like public transit it's often a way of repping your ethnicity/hood. I've been caught in the middle of a knife fight on a California public train car because a guy was blasting Hispanic music intentionally as loud as he could while staring everyone down. Extremely painful (as in ear damaging loud) for everyone, but I didn't say anything because I knew exactly what bait he was laying.

The train car entered a black neighborhood, then a black guy informed him it was his hood and he better knock that shit off. Latino guy immediately pulled out a knife and started swinging.

What if we asked the President to give us a quick rundown of each passenger's health?

I'm going to vote with my wallet by moving United up my priority list.

Pretty sure on planes this is more ignorance than malice. It’s self absorbed people that are too selfish to consider someone else might not want to hear what they’re watching, rather than some deliberate anti society thing.

Regardless, no punishment is too harsh, this should be considered the equivalent of lighting up a cigarette on a plane.

I don't think I'd have the wherewithal to jump in and do something if I were a bystander. I'm not the sort to throw hands, I don't carry, and these disruptive types are already a bit feral.

I'm not sure it's contempt they're expressing, or if they're expressing anything at all. There really are people who enjoy and defend it, too; "it's just a guy playing music, mind your own business." Truly alien.

My go-to technique has been to offer the offender a pair of headphones, saying something to insinuate that they must forgotten theirs or be too poor to afford them. Most of the time they say “oh I have headphones!” and then realize that they’ve outed themselves. (I stockpile the free headphones from gyms or airplanes, or get the $2 ones from AliExpress)

Happens elsewhere too. Can be an issue in Dutch trains

20%? That's a bit insane. This does happen in Europe but is heavily looked down up on and usually quickly corrected.

On the other hand I did get a chewing out from an older guy for having a conversation with friends on a train once, so some people take it perhaps a bit too serious.

How is walking over a road without a light inconveniencing anyone? I’ll cross the road when it’s clear. I don’t blast music in public places though.

Yeah, it sucks. I agree with you, they should be brutally murdered.

Of course they do - they modified their contract of carriage - which you basically agree to why buy a flight (https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.html) it’s the same mechanism they use to deny you boarding if you are barefoot etc.

Phone makers deleted the speaker is the ‘courage’ I want.

I've seen it everywhere except airplanes. I don't recall ever seeing it on planes. How often have you seen that? Do passengers or flight attendants do anything? How does the person respond?

Now explain why it wouldn’t also be fair to kick people off that were loudly emitting disgusting flatulence. Is it because they “might” not have control over it? Can I not claim I also “might” not have the control over my impulsive desire to listen to music or that I can’t use headphones for a medical issue?

I mean such a thing I would say equally detracts from the flying experience, so why not also kick those people off?

Edit: not sure why I’m getting downvoted, this is a legitimate question. I genuinely want to hear the justification.

I wonder how many people got this reference.

Anyway, for those who did not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCZ86O3PO-U

and yet the joke fell right into our laps

But kicking someone off mid-flight at high altitude is still a bit harsh. I hope they give them parachutes at least.

Either you missed the joke or I missed your sarcasm. I read GP as a joke: being literally kicked out of a flight in air is a death sentence, which is a bit harsh penalty indeed.

Yeah or people on bikes with a boombox. They do it because it's illegal to cycle with earphones in in these parts. But it creates its own problem of course.

Playing music on the street is acceptable if and only if the music is good.

I was recently in Hawaii in the middle of the forest and this group nearby on the trail were blasting music from a bluetooth speaker. Whether it is compelte lack of self awareness or utter disregard for other people it is just disturbing behavior.

My business includes my ears. If you don't want me in your business, keep your business to your ears.

> no punishment is too harsh, this should be considered the equivalent of lighting up a cigarette on a plane.

Okay this is ridiculous. One is a fire hazard and the other is not. Do you really need the hyperbole here?

Bluetooth headphones too?

This is actually a really good response though. Because the act of having a device blaring demonstrates contempt for everyone one around them. It's hard to act in a hateful way to someone who just offered you something for free.

It happenes in Dutch trains, but it's not the Dutch doing this.

Big "Kill them with kindness" energy.

It’s very much a thing on US public transit, with the added negative bonus that no one ever confronts the person doing it, because chances are they’re either crazy, armed, or both.

It’s going over your head. He’s talking about certain people.

There are times you need speaker-phone mode. My parents almost always turn on speaker-phone when they call me because they both want to be part of the conversation. I don't think they will ever take a plane or a bus trip in their lives so their speaker-phone isn't going to hurt anyone.

Sorry friend, I sarcastically was saying united cannot enforce their rules in cafes et. al.

Could have also gone for Dogma (which of course references that clip) https://youtu.be/PpckOsftaP4?si=DDlDY3ZK7FoUcKrn&t=41

I need speakerphone when I'm home alone and attempting to be on a phone call while doing other things. Some of those calls are even about instructing me to look for something, so it necessitates me to be moving about. Speakerphone is an incredibly useful utility.

Don't take functionality away because of a few bad actors. That'd be like getting rid of drones because a few people are assholes.

Put rules in place to correct the bad behavior. Kicking them off planes seems fair.

United says we should tone down the sarcasm

Bet it won't happen twice though.

I wonder if shoulder mounted speakers that aren't touching the users ears could help resolve this to everybody's reasonable satisfaction. (That is, everybody who's not deliberately trying to broadcast their music to everybody else.)

> give them parachutes at least

the first time

The idea someone doesn’t know they bothering everyone around them is absurd. It is 100% malice.

Another angle is kids who have been given a tablet as a pacifier. Their parents are often on autopilot, having checked out months or years earlier.

On topic (and discussed already on HN): https://github.com/Pankajtanwarbanna/stfu

I've found that looking the person in the eye and giving a quick "hey, forget your headphones?" sometimes does the trick, and has yet to start a fight. Everyone has to act in ways they are comfortable with - but mass inaction is what creates space for this shitty behavior in the first place.

> How is walking over a road without a light inconveniencing anyone?

They said “walk out into traffic.” That’s rude. You should wait for a signal or a break in the flow so nobody has to brake for you.

Depending on where you live it may not really be relatable to you, but living in NYC -- there are people that will intentionally jay walk on a green light and even _stare you down_ knowing that you will stop and let them pass.

People jay walk when there's no traffic all the time, that's totally fine. This is a totally different act of passive aggression.

That's too harsh, a regular murder would suffice.

I had it happen to me, on a long-haul flight, in business class. I was shocked. I stood up to look at the guy after no-one did anything.

I told him that phone speakers "make me gassy" and then he turned it off.

You'd have a more convincing argument if you argued for a passenger with Tourette's or something. Bodily functions are obviously different from watching a movie at full volume, because there's never a situation where you would be involuntarily blasting the audio of your show or whatever to the whole plane.

FUN FACT: Aviation rules require that any plane carrying a parachute must have at least one for every person on board. Hopefully the reason is obvious.

Now given that, do you really want to pay the extra cost of flying with 300 parachutes just so mr-full-volume-phone can have one?

Only if they paid extra at check-in.

> It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful place

Idk, they’re not looking for “a peaceful place” and are using a public space without damaging it. Nobody is forced to use the park at the same time as them. This seems like a difference in preferences which is fine.

The problem is there can he huge penalties for not flying when you booked. You might not be able to rebook your flight or hotel or days off so you're stuck either getting everyone sick or perhaps being out thousands of dollars or not going on vacation at all.

I don’t know if anyone remembers the movie Inside Man where at the beginning they are waiting in line at the bank and the woman is having a loud conversation on her phone and the guard comes and tells here to keep it down. It’s this kind of person that I see not using speakers (when the movie was made I don’t think they contemplated humanity could sink that low), at best it’s entitlement, but I still think in most cases it boils down to not thinking about others vs actively trying to annoy them.

It's apathy

A lot of people don’t get a lot of things; you know the adage about stupidity being a more likely cause than malice. Just last week I had to explain to a grown adult why spitting on the sauna floor was disgusting and rude to the other gym members. He was shocked.

Sorry to disagree -- stupidity and self-centeredness have a plan in that too.

I'm not a fan of the tablet as a pacifier approach but it's not my business. What is my business is when the parents do so without providing a way for the child to indulge without annoying everybody else. I consider that to be absolutely unacceptable in that if they can afford a tablet they can afford cheap headphones.

Walking into traffic in an undesignated crossing is rude (and illegal). Likewise with trying to cross at an intersection when traffic has the green light.

But when there’s a designated crossing area, it’s the responsibility of traffic to stop. Pedestrians should not stand and wait at the intersection for a break in traffic because it’s a confusing signal to drivers. If you’re standing at a designated crosswalk you need to be either signaling your intent to cross or moving away from the crosswalk

Just put them in row 24 on a Boeing 737 max and let the problem take care of itself.

I never see this being an issue. On the other hand I often see cars blast by stop signs without stopping or ignore marked crosswalks with passengers inside.

No wonder pedestrian deaths are up so much the past few years

> Depending on where you live it may not really be relatable to you, but living in NYC -- there are people that will intentionally jay walk on a green light and even _stare you down_ knowing that you will stop and let them pass.

This is the speed walking equivalent of picking up pennies in front of a steam roller. Saves a min here and then until you pay for it big time.

That is an incredibly fun fact. Does this only apply to commercial or also a little Cessna? Presumably there is no actual enforcement on the private planes.

I've packed my own parachute for this hypothetical situation.

I’m sure it is, much of the time. But I also believe many people are just completely self absorbed and devoid of empathy.

Hanlon's razor applies. Yes, some people have a bad case of the main character syndrome simply because nobody has ever called them out on it.

I experienced this in real life and this creature was unable to understand the bus driver telling her to stop. It's like they didn't understand English nor social signals. To me it seemed to stem from a lack of intelligence than from intentionally being malicious.

When young children are on airplanes you cheat in whatever way you can.

Tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids

I did this on a bus and had a gun pulled on me, so your mileage may vary

Getting pedantic now but depending on the circumstances the traffic is supposed to have stopped for you.

Assuming there is no paint on the road an (unmarked) crosswalk may still exist [1] and drivers are supposed to yield to a pedestrian in a marked or unmarked crosswalk [2].

[1]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

[2]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

> That's too harsh, a regular murder would suffice.

Correct. Kicking someone off during a flight and not giving them a parachute counts as a regular murder...

Just open the window

You’re an every day hero. Thank you!

And you specifically have to request it. It isn’t a normal option during purchase.

Okay, Tourette’s then. Should we kick people off for Tourette’s?

Your comment also presupposes two things: that flatulence is always involuntary and blasting music isn’t. Let’s say I have a form of Tourette’s that forces me to involuntarily blast noise and music and I have medical papers to prove it. Is it okay then?

I would absolutely support it if you could demonstrate that those two things are actually true. My point is: Who gets to decide what’s legitimately an involuntary medical issue and what isn’t, and where is the line that demarcates it? And what is the point of this exercise? It’s to prevent people from forcing everyone else to have a worse experience for their own personal gain, which flatulence is a form of that you could argue, so why is blasting music fundamentally different?

One person playing loud music makes the park less enjoyable for thirty people around them. That’s not “preferences”, when their method of consuming the public space affects the way everyone around them experiences it.

There are typically noise rules at most parks where I live. The people who "blast loud music" are breaking the rules, and annoying everyone else at the park. That's not cool, and they should get kicked out if they don't comply.

Then they should have containment suits on the plane. If they see someone THAT sick, stick em in the suit.

That same line of reasoning could apply to music on planes. No one really needs to use a particular airline at a particular time or use a public park at any given time. It ceases to be a public place if a small group of people can de facto monopolize it by making it unpleasant for most other people to be there.

James Q. Wilson talked about this problem a long time ago... and why standard neighborhood shaming cannot really police it. Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations which is why you have a breakdown in manners and even high school kids from affluent areas hitting "devious licks."

    Because the sanctions employed are subtle, informal, and delicate, not everyone is equally vulnerable to everyone else’s discipline. Furthermore, if there is not a generally shared agreement as to appropriate standards of conduct, these sanctions will be inadequate to correct such deviations as occur. A slight departure from a norm is set right by a casual remark; a commitment to a different norm is very hard to alter, unless, of course, the deviant party is “eager to fit in,” in which case he is not committed to the different norm at all but simply looking for signs as to what the preferred norms may be.

Perhaps people can cheat while still giving them headphones or turning devices on silent mode?

They understand English. They just don't want to stop doing what they want to do. This is a quality that they share with everyone else on the planet by definition, but they think they're more important than other people.

There are angry people playing dominance games on one hand, and on the other people who simply don't care what anybody else wants and will do what they can get away with. There's no difference in intelligence between the two, but only the first type can actually be reasoned with. The second type will only pretend to be reasonable until the person that they're intimidated by leaves the room.

Everybody says "social cues," but as you said, the people who "don't get social cues" also don't seem to "get" direct requests or orders.

Usually they have been called out on it a time or two. They are often signaling that if you want to stop them, you'll have to use violence, and look -- no one or almost no one is willing to do that.

There are a couple of us who have actually seen someone call them out that are warning folks here what commonly happens. I saw someone get attacked with a knife, another commenter here had a gun pulled on him when they asked them to stop. It isn't about the loud music itself, it's that they're openly saying they are king shit, that no one is willing to challenge them, and broadcasting their eagerness to deliver violence upon anyone that might.

The other side of this is that they often do it on places you can't easily escape, like a train car with stops only every 5 minutes. This gives them a very long time to go to town on anyone that might challenges them. Something I've seen with my own eyes when they were asked to tone down the music.

I am self-absorbed and devoid of empathy but it is still easy to logically deduce that other people don't want to hear my games, videos, or phone calls.

I’ve brought a tablet on airplanes to watch movies with kids on long flights, but we bring headphones. Flights are the only time we do this.

There is nothing about a tablet or a flight that requires letting them blast audio at full volume. It’s not even a good experience.

Getting pedantic here, "no light / crosswalk" means no crosswalk, painted or not.

Requisite link to satirical study

"Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial"

https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

Nah, with how ticketing is these days they'll bug you a dozen times to choose between the $50 basic economy disaster package that only has the mask and 50% airflow or the full package for $100 that includes another 25% airflow and a flotation device. Business execute gets you the parachute, a private life raft, and a few days of MREs for $250.

We're talking about music coming from a phone. Not a person. Just turn the phone off or uninstall tiktok. Or put it in your bag.

Thanks mate. If he can assault my ears, I can assault his nose, right. Or threaten to ;)

Are you seriously making the argument blasting music or a movie or whatever is an involuntary bodily function?

Yes exactly. If they are blasting ethnic music while in an ethnic hood it is usually because they are repping their hood, and sometimes in a way to intentionally bait someone to say something. If you ask them to stop they will pretend it is a challenge on their hood/race (no matter that they will play it so loud everyone's ears are splitting and all they want is not to get hearing damage). I watched a guy pull out a knife and start slashing as soon as he was asked to stop.

If you ask such person to stop it is implied they expect you to back that up with violence and you've already consented to a battle.

Getting more pedantic, less than 1pct of the population is in California.

Pretty clear parent meant people who cross against the light / mid-block when there is a crossing 50ft away / stepping in front of the one car on the road when they could look up for one second and step out behind that car etc. in other words the people who put off 'main character' vibes.

Boeing tried this new feature.

> same line of reasoning could apply to music on planes

You can’t leave a plane. And planes aren’t for recreation. I like quiet parks. But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade. I’m okay with other people having different thoughts on how to recreate.

> Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations

Older people have been complaining about kids with boomboxes and skateboards for generations.

I think we're talking about two different groups of people. The ones I mean don't look dangerous, just self-absorbed. The ones you mean I don't have much experience of, they're not common around here. And they're certainly not common on airplanes.

> They are often signaling that if you want to stop them, you'll have to use violence

I'm well aware of the types you're talking about, but in my experience this has largely changed. It used to be that these sorts were the most common offenders. But now it's just, well, everyone and anyone. For instance I don't think the little, old lady in front of me on the bus the other day was challenging people to violence.

> I saw someone get attacked with a knife, another commenter here had a gun pulled on him

I though the discussion here was about people not using their headphones on airplanes.

Being devoid of empathy would mean you may realize that people don't want to hear your shit, but you wouldn't care what other people want

>you've already consented to a battle.

More like you've already admitted cowardice, which makes you fair game. If it's the music that upsets you, come at me with louder speakers!

Not a bug, works as intended.

The average park in America is only like 5-10 acres. And of that only certain areas may have playstructures / basketball courts / benches / other things that people can actually use. So sufficiently loud audio can ruin people's experience. It's obvious to anyone who's been outside in the past 10 years that "live and let live" doesn't work... if they were using heroin and nodding out would that just be another form of recreation?

Yes, and the crime spike of the 1960s started with boomers reaching 15-20. You can follow that to cookie monster pajamas in Walmart.

> "But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade."

? That does not at all match my experience with parks.

But besides that, I am not sure how it would support your argument.