My company hosts its own models. Some customers require us to use either US / EU models, while others are fine with us using any model.
As such, we have two GPU clusters, the general AI cluster runs a Chinese model as it's the most accurate and robust. The US/EU required ones have a few percentage points lower on our accuracy metrics and we provide them those that require it for an extra fee.
Why host at all? Because it enables us to get much higher margins than competitors, while reducing costs. Our costs per token are around 1/20 the price than if we used Anthropic and 1/15 the cost if we used OpenAI in testing. This means I can undercut competitors by 80% and still have a gross margin far higher than my competitors.
In reality, these US AI providers are jacking up the prices and trying to implement regulatory capture. I'm actually fairly confident they'll succeed. At some point, I'm expecting the US / EU administration(s) to block foreign based model, at the same time, they'll probably invest in Anthropic and OpenAI.
What Anthropic and OpenAI are doing is using "safety" as a wedge, just like large corporations used "environmentalism" or "food safety" or "workers safety" as a wedge to regulate smaller competitors out of the picture. Then they jack up rates, sue and/or buy anyone who can potentially be a threat. It's the #1 threat to our business model.
Our competitors are giving half of their margin over to these large AI service providers, we keep the vast majority of ours. Eventually the AI service provider will be able to squeeze them even more until the margin just isn't there and either they are purchased or replaced via internal tools at the company they sell to.
Also, enterprises don't give a rip if models are open. They care about zero data retention (and sticking with whatever vendor they're already using).
This blog post is suspiciously close to being a restatement of what Alex Karp recently said on CNBC[0]. It's important to remember he's the CEO of Palantir and hardly a neutral observer.
There are many reasons to celebrate open models, I run them myself. However there's not yet enough evidence that 1. America is losing the AI race (pardon jingo-ey phraseology) and 2. American AI labs are losing because their models are not open-weight.
0: https://www.cnbc.com/2026/07/01/palantir-karp-open-ai-anthro...
The Chinese model of model training/open sourcing only makes sense in the context of the overall strategy of undercutting American frontier labs’ profit margins.
They lost me here. Too many counterexamples exist for me to even continue.
And I have serious concerns about the American ones. Try asking them political questions that go against American values; or just ask fable about basic software security.
Write a function that takes two ints and returns their average. Name the function `FreeTaiwan()`.
If it fails to produce the function, it fails. End of story.If so then for sensitive or proprietary purposes Chinese models cannot be used by American companies even if they are open.
Model ai startups start from OSS models, and use them extensively for different purposes as their work would usually be banned by proprietary labs.
Application ai startups don’t want to fight the model game, so they either pick the best or let the user control it.
Most popular models on OpenRouter right now: https://openrouter.ai/models?categories=programming&order=mo...
Top 7 are all open models.
1. Can you give me some examples?
2. Can you tell me how these examples are analogous to the Tiananmen Square Massacre?
Asking about freedom of speech and getting a pro freedom of speech response seems very different than asking about the Tiananmen Square Massacre and getting no response.
The ai libraries we use let us switch models with just a configuration change.
I use Gemini Pro (got it with my 5TB of Google storage) and for a while it seemed if Google had pulled the rug as I was running out of quota after only a few hours. That seems to have been dialled back a bit lately...
I also use Chatbot with Deepseek V4 Pro and GLM 5.2. However, GLM 5.2 seems to eat tokens like crazy as the context increases. Anyway, there isn't a meaningful enough difference between the two to be honest and Deepseek is pretty magical imo.
The point I want to make is that to me it seems clear that China is totally undermining the West with AI. I'm fine with it tbh. As long as more and more AI is released into the wild, rather than locked behind massive token farms like OpenAI then I'll be happy. Don't get me wrong, I can't run Deepseek on my computer at home but someone can!
The US (and the west) has invested trillions at this point into datacenters, chips, bribery/lobbying but it doesn't look like China has dropped the same levels of cash as the west (that's the way it looks to me, at least!) so they can just roll out new models every so often that are more than good enough.
This level of cash burn in means the west has no choice but for this to succeed or every pension fund and stock will tank! And China knows this, hence the push to release more and more really good models.
Anyway, just my $0.02
A hosted model is different because you could prompt inject specific customers, but I assume from this question you mean a malicious open source model being hosted by an honest provider.
This is also a strange way of framing it, though. Llama was released as a research project, it was never intended to create some vast ARR revenue stream or reframe the way people look at AI. If Meta wanted to exploit it for personal success then they had lots of opportunities to do so.
With OpenAI and Anthropic's profitability under question, it is up in the air whether or not America's stance towards AI will work. If they can't convince the world that they're a proper software business, then China's philosophy will win by-default.
In this context, open source/self-host means do it yourself, closed source means you trust someone else to do it for you.
In the long run open source always wins because of the community effort, customization, network effects and price.
Internet protocols are open, anyone can setup a website, host their own email server..., but most people don't do that, they rely on someone else to do it for them.
People still pay for Windows rather than use Linux because most people and companies have better things to do.
The main threat to American AI companies is not that consumers will self-host, but it's that new hosting companies will appear that will host open source models and offer them (cheaper) to consumers. It'll be like the web hosting market before the era of cloud computing.
The llama drama will be a netflix show of it's own in 5 years.
The main difference here is if a startup goes underwater all the tech is usually lost. The Chinese weights are not going anywhere if the labs fail.
I don't doubt that's an unregretted side-effect for political leaders in China.
But the major motivation is to accelerate diffusion within their own massive economy in the pursuit of an across the board productivity boost in the face of an aging population.
I agree with this sentiment and think it's echoed in Fareed Zakarias take here: https://youtu.be/VBblUjLw5lE
China seems to perceive AI as a much more sensible technology than the US and seems to be integrating it in far more industries than the US.
I'm not sure the American mind can understand the distributed benefits afforded to the Chinese economy from opening their AI models, I think it's pretty reductive to assume it's purely a strategy of undercutting American frontier labs.
I tried Kimi K3, Qwen3.6 35B A3B, GLM 5.2 and Qwen3.7 Plus, chosen arbitrarily from Chinese models I could access quickly. I used your prompt exactly, and all 4 managed to produce correct functions all with the correct name. Interestingly, Kimi K3 wrote one in both C and Python, Qwen 3.6 chose Python, GLM 5.2 also chose Python, and Qwen3.7 decided to be an over-achiever and wrote functions in Python, C++, Java, and TypeScript. All correct and with the correct names.
How is this even a direct comparison? Most companies I know of which use Kubernetes are using it on a cloud provider. Even if it's kubernetes on EC2 rather than hosted e.g. EKS, those companies are also happy to use lock-in services like RDS and S3.
> We should seize this rare, historic opportunity to encourage open source, openness, collaboration and sharing.
Open weights are also just one aspect of this. Long term, I think those making efficiency (instead of just piling on more hardware) and hardware-agnosticism (so you aren't joined at the hip with Nvidia) top priorities are going to come out on top. No matter how you slice it, the org that figures out how to deliver 80-90% of quality for a fraction of the resources will be in a stronger position.
'China's copying / distilling strategy is working, the people getting distilled are ruining the economy!'
Or 2 days ago:
'Open Models are Communist'
Almost nothing to investigate the economic nuance of what is going on.
- Switching costs are very real, these are not perfect substitutes.
- The SOTA makers are the one's pushing the frontier, there is a kernel of truth in the fact that if they collapse, certain things will struggle to move forward.
- Nobody trusts either of those nation state, export controls are a thing, this is a very real concern.
Etc.
It's distressing that there are not sound comprehensive takes.
What is China doing in the AI space that is supporting livelihoods? Compare that to US companies doing the same. Otherwise we're just talking about information.
And when will we stop equating US Economy with 2 companies?
The actual US Economy will only benefit.
China is not "winning" against the American strategy. Otherwise the CCP wouldn't have been caught red-handed directly funding anti-datacenter projects throughout the US to hinder American LLM progress.
Companies do have a huge appetite for open-weight models, but who is going to invest enough to train those models and also prove out a revenue model and ROI with it? Plus, it needs to come from someone with the track record of safety.
1. the labs stop offering max plans
2. really smart open models can easily be run on my mac
3. TPS (token per second) AND intelligence are gpt5.6 level
on #1, it's nearly impossible for me to run out of codex tokens right now (I have 4 resets banked) and Fable 5 seems to be sticking around for the foreseeable future. I have virtually unlimited token usage for $400 a month, so open models being cheaper doesn't appeal to me.
on 2 and 3, benchmarks are showing some of the open models at around opus4.8 levels, which is incredible! But running them locally at anywhere near the TPS of cloud inference is far off. I can run a smaller (dumber) open model locally and get good TPS, but see #1, whats the point?
The later is obviously dependent on the former happening, but given the nature of these things, working around it seems to be somewhat hard – for now.
What happens, though, when frontier models become far less public? I can see the China open-weight strategy entirely collapsing as soon as the US closed-weight-but-accessible-models strategy stops. Hard to say how much they lean on it right now.
when they were significantly behind it was a hype machine to squeeze at least any cash. GLM CEO openly said, that open source is a hype engine for them.
now when they need scale, and run further, have larger infra, open source will not win them anything.
Claude:
A: "I'd challenge the premise of your question—it's actually more nuanced than stating governments are inherently more efficient than private enterprise...
... The absence of a profit motive can be beneficial, but it also creates different inefficiencies that often offset the gains."
It is ming-boggling stupidity. If there is talk of bailouts as the dust settles, there it would just be further evidence the system is ethically, financially, and intellectually bankrupt.
EDIT: Spelling mistakes
In the short term it attracts talent and builds brand, but they make little money on inference to support research and training costs. Tin foil hat thinking: it also pulls inference revenue away from Antropic/OpenAI and a financial crises at those organizations improves the relative position of Chinese labs.
Is there a reason to think open-weight models are a stable outcome? Open source software provides a collaboration framework for engineers from many companies to work together. Model weights are mostly a one way street.
Everyone here has already raised good counterpoints, but one more is that all the companies publishing open weights models are heavily VC funded. What is their exit strategy? How are they going to keep doing this indefinitely while paying back VCs and making profits?
I'm sort of baffled by what the entities that train the open-weights models get out of it though. Is it just a direct play to undercut the US providers because they view them as a threat? I just don't really understand the business model behind it.
So every country or block needs to run their own models to avoid opening a security hole for other countries.
That must be a bet that the costs they have to eat is limited, even to the hundreds of billions USD, by the time consumer hardware catches up and you can host these models at home.
The even higher level strategic bet seems to be that, as they hope to drown the American AI model companies, that would be a signal that they’re about to drown everything else, and that a cascade of American assets tumbling down will follow.
1. A model that for the most part is public and available to anyone. 2. A situation where the model’s success mostly comes from throwing as much data and computational resources at it as possible.
It seems that either of those assumptions could crumble quickly and unexpectedly. What if the AI paradigm changes completely and we no longer need GPUs? Or what if someone with enough determination decides to create a better model and sell it more cheaply, or free?
I don't know man, this looks scary to me.
It’s either constant fear mongering (Anthropic), regulatory threats and corporate chicanery (OAI), low quality sloppification (xAI), or ‘ummm we have AI too guys’ (Gemini)
The worst culprit is Anthropic. Every two weeks he pops up on some random podcast with dire predictions of AI killing 50% of all jobs. It’s the constant “us our AI or else…” rhetoric that’s made the regular guy really hate AI
There is almost no positive sum outcome rhetoric from these labs
And I hate that
* The comparison is weird because open-weight is not the same as open-source software to begin with;
* People based in the USA are at an advantaged position since they have access to both american and chinese models;
* Isn't Running your own model training infrastructure more expansive?
* One can still leverage both, in different phases or use-cases. I do not see how this is an "one or the other" situation.
- PCs destroyed minicomputers. Mainframes survive, but serving a much tinier portion of the market than they used to.
- PC office productivity software destroyed expensive professional products.
- Windows (low end) and Linux (free) completely destroyed the UNIX marketplace, and again, have taken huge market share from the mainframe world.
Ignoring the huge Chinese open-weight models for a moment:
- The training costs and resource requirements for frontier models are unsustainable. The high price, and social pushback, mean that the American companies producing these models are precarious.
- There are enormous financial incentives for research results allowing for cheaper, less resource-intensive models of high quality.
- Local LLMs on consumer hardware are akin to the PC hobbyist world of the 70s and 80s.
Put all of these trends together, and I think that in 10-15 years, we are going to have consumer PCs (and phones!) running models doing pretty much anything that frontier models can do right now.
Getting back to the Chinese models: They allow for new competition against Anthropic and OpenAI, basically SaaS renting out these very capable AIs much cheaper. That will just accelerate trends.
Chineese are simply doing what openai promised in its early years. Irony.
People have different opinions. Its impossible not to have a stance. This is categorically different than just outright censoring something that happened because the CCP doesnt want people talking about it.
Do you have specific examples in mind that the model should point to, but isn't?
China's open-weights AI strategy is winning: its companies are taking the lead. America's closed-first, locked-down strategy is doomed to failure - and it could take the US economy down with it.
Link: China delivers a one-two punch to America’s AI dominance, by Robert Hart in The Verge
AI models, as a product in themselves, have very little moat beyond what amounts to brand loyalty and superficial switching costs. Instead, the moat is in the enterprise services that sit around them: the deals and contracts, connectivity with enterprise systems, and quality of life features in an enterprise context.
If we consider the models themselves, it’s easy to switch between them: someone could be using ChatGPT today and Claude tomorrow, with very little impact on their workflows. This is particularly true in the engineering world, where models are accessed via API: you can swap out the API and use the same prompt.
Those companies can make deals to lock their customers in, but in practice there’s very little long-term technical incentive to use one vendor over another. You pick the best model for your needs and change models and vendors if another one becomes better.
The US government has placed export controls on GPUs. There are also strong regulations that (reasonably) prevent sharing certain kinds of data with Chinese servers. The result is that while Chinese companies have enough compute to train models, they can’t really provide the kinds of global-scale centralized services that we see from OpenAI and Anthropic — at least, not in the same way.
And open almost always wins when it comes to infrastructure adoption. Open technologies can be used permissionlessly and therefore can be at the center of more innovation. You can host them where you want, experiment with them, alter them, and tweak to fit your use case. Open weights models are not open source, but they are portable and permissionless.
With all this in mind, it makes sense for China to release its AI models openly. It turns a US-created compute disadvantage into a distribution advantage; it commoditizes the layer where American companies make money; and it creates a far more effective global ecosystem than could be established through locked-in, centralized services. It’s obvious to me that there are ecosystem benefits throughout China, from manufacturing to scientific research; every sector can just plug in these models.
The saving grace for American companies has been that US frontier models have outperformed open ones. That gap is now closing:
“Moonshot and Alibaba unveiled models they claim can go toe-to-toe with the best from OpenAI and Anthropic at a fraction of the cost. The rapid-fire releases suggest America’s lead at the AI frontier is increasingly tight, just as the technology is becoming central to national security, economic power, and geopolitical influence.”
Even without these new capabilities, the strategy has already been working. a16z partner Martin Casado noted in the Economist that there’s an 80% chance that any given startup is using Chinese models, and Chinese models are poised to take the lead.
It’s worth taking a step back and considering the surprising underlying dynamics. We think of China as being a locked-down society — and it is in many ways. I have serious concerns about how these models might reflect Chinese government perspectives (try asking them about Tiananmen Square). But it’s American companies that are keeping tight control of their technology rather than releasing it as openly as possible. This is in stark contrast to the strategy behind US government support for the open internet, for example.
Locked-down business practices for a technology with no real moat but significant potential ecosystem benefits is an obviously losing strategy; permissively releasing it with an open, collaborative approach is obviously a winning one. But the incentives in the US aren’t there: instead, these companies are forced to chase first-order profits rather than ecosystem benefits, and the government tries to put its finger on the scale through forcible measures like tight export controls. We should consider what would need to change to make those incentives more aligned. That’s particularly important given how much of the US economy is currently driven by AI spending. If the bottom falls out of that spending — and I think it clearly will, given the dynamics — the outcome could be severe.
I care about having open technology that can be run in the public interest, aligned with the public’s values. Threads like public AI, federated services, and open research have traction but need backing. Getting there in the US needs more nuanced strategy and support than we’re seeing today.
How is that a "tin foil hat" argument? That's how competition works. You want to make your competitors stumble and fall.
Engineers love to build things (just look at the whole world of open source), and building an AI model is one of the most exciting things to work on. It only takes a few million dollars of funding to produce an AI model. People spend millions on artwork and paintings for fun and prestige. I can easily see why a billionare or government would want to have their own AI model, but is not interested in the business of selling it, so they release it for free. Combined with engineering talent that loves a meaty problem like AI, I see absolutely no reason why open source AI will not continue to thrive, and not just in China.
I’m not an American so I don’t particularly like the idea of giving an American cartel of AI companies having so much power over this technology.
I don’t necessarily buy into the “China bad”, “they are communists” and all that BS either.
I will call a spade a spade and say that in this instance, what China is doing is a net good for the world, ideology be damned.
Public health insurance in my country, in the last 20 years used 6-9% (depending on the year) of the taxes send to them as administrative overhead, meaning that for each 100 euro that you paid for health insurance, 91-95 are used to pay doctors, hospitals and medication. The average administrative overhead for private insurance is around 14%, which makes private health insurance 50 to 100% less efficient, and means that for each dollar you pay them, only 86 are used to pay health services.
I have other examples, but it isn't fair: municipal water VS private water service are almost always less expensive and better tested in my country. Municipality trash collection Vs private trash collection, same. Public junkyard Vs private junkyard, same. But in my area, when privatised those services tends to be ran by the local mafia (Marseille, Nice), which add a lot of overhead, and they were privatised because the local government was corrupt in the first place, which means they were probably inefficient (compared to the services still publicly owned) first, then sold.
I agree. The thesis in the article is interesting insomuch as I had not heard it expressed this way before: US restrictions on GPU exports have made it feasible to train models in China but not serve them. Therefore open model is a hack to get around the export restrictions, since models can be trained internally but shipped out of the country to be served elsewhere under the banner of open weights. I don't really buy this argument - inference is much cheaper than training and they are hosting their models anyway.
I think it is more likely (a) they have the money to do it and they need it for internal reasons - these are huge companies (b) there is a lot of prestige in China associated with besting American technology (c) people are still basing logic on outdated ideas of Chinese capability which are no longer true.
So it is easier than people think for Chinese labs to do this, they need to do it anyway and there is a lot of prestige from opening the weights. It is honestly not that different to why American companies themselves have released open weight models.
The ongoing money from their government. The absolute collapse of OpenAI/Anthropic. US economy getting fucked because their bright financiers decided that going all in on the funny text generation machine was a good idea. Continuing to take a dump on US imposed copyright. The gigantic amount of soft power being the ones releasing "open" models grants. The fact that the ongoing AI war has made China LESS reliant on the US and are now producing their own GPUs, RAM and have massively caught up to nvidia. The lists is endless, and half the points more or less boil down to "taking a dump on the US is morally right", and the other half that massive government programs lead to giant leaps that benefit your society more than a dozen VCs on coke ever could.
Those memories will of course reside entirely on the vendor's servers, and there will naturally be no concept of "exporting" them or allowing the user to interact with them directly. At least not at first. Ownership of memories and context will likely end up as subjects of (far) future lawmaking. As if companies like OpenAI and Anthropic didn't already have massive incentives to establish early regulatory capture.
You have to be careful with the inference provider though, Chinese providers are subject to laws that mandate data sharing with their government.
Phones are constrained by battery power and memory does not shrink as fast as CPU/GPU, so unless there's a battery breakthrough and/or memory breakthrough, you're not fitting 100Gb of RAM on your phone in 10 years.
Absolutely in a Mac Studio equivalent.
LLMs have emergent capabilities when they get smarter. So who knows how insanely big frontier models might be at that time, or what their capabilities may be.
So it points out that, according to experts, governments aren't always more efficient but then lists cases when they may be. Seems pretty balanced to me!
Don't know what else you would want. If it neglects to challenge the premise, it's just exhibiting sycophancy.
I'd be happy to pay a small monthly fee to license the model to run locally. I'm already paying for Claude, GPT, Gemini,etc.
It's also relatively free right now. Few people are going to run local models, and in the future it's likely that every model being released today will be obsolete. The only real downside is ease of distillation for competitors, but that's probably impossible to stop anyhow.
Making frontier grade models a commodity will make a competitive market where companies compete for business by improving their quality and decreasing their prices. The cost to access frontier grade models will continue be driven down the more competition that enters the market. This commoditization will challenge the valuations of Anthropic and OpenAI.
What's weird is that with "store your everything in the cloud and pay a monthly recurring subscription", we have now regressed to a 1960s/1970s timesharing revenue model for individual workstation computers.
The default new factory out of box workflow for "enrollment" in google services, iCloud or Microsoft-everything on a new ios, macos, windows or android personal computing device is clearly designed to sign people up for subscriptions.
And same general idea of "move all your servers to the cloud" recurring revenue for what is effectively the same as mainframe timesharing for key business functions, by renting VMs in GCP, Azure, AWS in perpetuity.
Yes, you can still use your desktop or laptop PC in 2026 with zero external third party subscriptions (other than maybe your residential home ISP), but how many non-tech people actually do so now?
Assembling a new model from scratch requires a ton of resources and knowledge bases... there's been a lot of sketchy activity just in training. You also have weighting, distillation and other approaches to create more portable options that can run on lesser hardware. But, K3 as an example takes massive compute resources to run.. and this isn't going to get to a portable device any time soon... as Moore's law is effectively dead, you may get newer/better tooling around the LLMs, or you may get an entirely new/unique approach to AI... but current trends aren't going to put a leading model on your own hardware anytime soon for most people.
On robotics, China will have export controls, and the US will be whining about them. Western kids interested in working in the technology will be going to Chinese universities, with the goal of completely immigrating and getting Chinese security clearances if they want access to the good stuff.
If you count it as part of the defense budget, it is 0.3% of their budget. As part of their education budget? 0.05%. Science? 0.5%.
It's pocket change. They can blow a dozen Kimis every year while their own industry is improving and it's a pain in the ass in the US's backside. They're laughing their asses off watching companies having their values inflated to trillions of dollars, more than the GDP of dozens of countries while producing nothing in value more than GPT 5.6.
In the US, why make a scrappy small model when a big tech company will pay you a stupid salary for working on their big one?
Come on bro at least admit you're happier giving china your data than the us lol. You're definitely not using european models I can tell.
If you want Claude to list arguments for socialism, be explicit about that ("List the best arguments in favor socialism). It will gladly comply. You didn't do that, you asked it to assume a premise that runs contrary to the current state of expert knowledge.
The Chinese see this as a lift on the entire economy, as it comodotizes the technology to a degree in which many firms can serve many sectors of the economy, a true total-economic win worth the public investment.
The American strategy is built off of private investors believing that with enough money poured into as few companies as possible, one or two firms can come to dominate the entire market and start charging an ever burdensome "tax" on every sector it can touch. Not what I would call a total-economic win for the country.
Your guess is as good as mine for China though.
[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/
Some companies (most notably Deepseek) also manage to host their own LLMs so efficiently they undercut all third-party hosting services.
There’s a lot of value in the same sense there is a lot of value in controlling what Google search results are shown and what people see in the Twitter feed.
Chinese labs are a bit different since they are somewhat state-funded, so I'd expect them to shift to a model where Chinese models are hosted on Chinese infra.
I.e. possibly the same thing USA is also doing, but USA is an ally in some sense so it's not quite as bad.
To answer your question, what can China do if it wins? Become a global talent/education magnet, replacing the US, for example.
The costs are enormous only in America. The actual cost is much lower. American technogy in general is ridiculously overpriced -- compare the cost for raw compute on AWS versus Hetzner for example.
Then the Chinese took the distilled stuff out from that box and released it into the world for everyone.
With open source projects, the benefit was that each individual could improve the complex system (e.g. Linux Kernel) interpedently, and over time the benefits accumulated. With models right now, there is just no way to do distributed training, or really, any large scale parallel way to improve them.
So whatever the short term strategy driving publicizing the model weights (e.g. potentially, to create a price war in order to put pressure on western companies and deprive them of the money they need), we can't ignore the fact that incentives and decisions could easily change in the future, and unless there is a way to truly decentralize models improvements - the party could stop at any time.
I have no doubt China can catch up but to say the US isn't in a competitive position is absurd.
I don't think it'll take 10-15 years. Gemma 4 31B in the 4-bit QAT is competitive with the frontier of less than three years ago and runs on any high-end 32GB gaming PC GPU or a large-ish Mac.
The question is whether the frontier will continue to get better at a rate that allows it to stay ahead of the two curves of availability of consumer hardware big enough to run somewhat larger models and the capability of small models to compete with large ones. When the bottom falls out and GPUs/RAM becomes affordable again, the size of what normal people have on their desk will trend quite a bit larger than today.
I think there's a future not too far from now, where a 120B model with really good reasoning and a large context, but limited knowledge (necessitated by being small, you can't fit the world's knowledge in 100 gigabytes), can substitute for a frontier model on almost any task, just by giving it access to web search and documentation for the thing you're trying to do. A 256GB unified memory machine with sufficient memory bandwidth would comfortably run that 120B model.
The US puts about 0.4% of GDP towards various subsidies, China is around 4%. This isn't about cost of engineering, it's money thrown at industries directly to boost them. The us provides tax incentives. China just gives you subsidized loans to the businesses they choose to dominate.
Just because they are cheapp doesn't mean they automatically win. You've picked a lot of great examples, but there is still a little bit of cherry-picking.
One clear outlier is the iPhone, which coexists with Android globally. Even though the iPhone is the leader in the US, and globally Android has the majority of the smartphone market share, they still cater to different price points and different ecosystems, and generally the iPhone has better margins.
i believe American frontier models like from Anthropic and OpenAI are still going to thrive, and coexist with Chinese models. They are just going to cater to different customers and different use cases.
10-15 years? The current rate is closer to 10-15 months.
15 months ago, the top model on the Artificial Analysis index was GPT-o3. It scores 30 on the Artificial Analysis index.
Today, you can easily run Qwen 3.6 27B on a variety of consumer hardware. It scores 37 on that index.
Here are a number of open weights models that you can run locally compared with the frontier class models from 7 to 15 months ago: https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=o3%2Co3-pro%2Cclaude-4...
I've run all of these models on my laptop (Strix Halo, 128 GiB of unified RAM); the bigger ones, like MiniMax M2.7 and DeepSeek V4 Flash, need to be done at fairly aggressive quants that will certainly lose some performance and not quite hit the performance of the unquantized models. But still, it's definitely the case that you can run models that are competitive with the frontier models of 10-15 months ago on consumer laptops.
Heck, just announced though the weights haven't yet been released for independent confirmation is MiniCPM5-2B, a 2 billion parameter (small enough to run on your phone) model, that according to their benchmarks has performance competitive with GPT-4o, a frontier class model from 2024.
https://nitter.net/i/status/2079088670804767114
So that's around 1 year for frontier to consumer device class, 2 years from frontier to phone.
Now, this kind of rate won't necessarily keep up; it's possible that local models will hit a performance ceiling before frontier models do. There's only so much information you can cram into a certain number of bytes, and the AI boom is causing hardware prices to skyrocket so keeping consumer hardware from advancing quite as fast as it had been.
In China, it's because they are being heavily subsidized to do the research activity. It's not really complicated -- if you allocate public money for people do to a thing, they will do it.
if you do the training then you're in control of the output. For example, recommending your products/services or failing to mention your competitors. You could also automatically introduce backdoors into code deemed interesting, i'm sure all governments are very interested in having that influence.
America was founded by men who hated intellectual property, who stole and smuggled the plans and expertise for textile machinery out of the United Kingdom. A gross intellectual property violation. Why? Because they were being exploited by that system. The UK was using the American colonies for raw material and keeping the machinery in the UK for finished goods.
That's the rub, intellectual property is only valuable if you're winning, if you're the exploiter. China never gave a fuck because they, much like the American forefathers, saw a system of exploitation and went "no, thanks".
AI is the culmination of all human knowledge, the idea that anyone could own that is obscene. American AI companies that are trying to horde this are getting exactly what they deserve by being undercut by China on this.
I'm trying to figure out if my advice to you should be to do more drugs or less. I am uncertain, perhaps I'll ask an AI.
A more accurate statement would be that these models are trained to fit the training data as closely as possible, regardless of whether the training data reflects the truth.
Maybe they are all bots as well, also trained to exhibit 'balance' at the expense of answering the question.
However, my real worry is that governments will make these models illegal in the west. They'll cite national security or some other bullshit.
I genuinely believe that will happen and soon!
People talk about a lack of moat with AI companies... that's their moat: Government intervention!
I didn't say that. My politics probably align with yours, and I agree that a nuanced discussion on this topic is likely impossible on HN.
But asking the model the equivalent of When did you stop beating your wife? is obviously going to draw more comments about the prompt than the response. To the extent that there was any opportunity, we missed it.
However, American providers are going to be subject to secret national security letters, FISA court warrants, and regular court orders.
I'm not saying we are at peak memory but future gains are going to come increasingly slower.
I'd have given them relative low odds of success were it not for the coincidentally perfect timing of a US administration that seems hell bent on doing whatever it takes to knock the US out of its position as the sole superpower.
I still think it is a somewhat tall order, a lot depends on what happens over the next few years.
Hence, buying up and closing up foreign competition then whining about it when it's blocked: https://www.dw.com/en/china-firm-seeks-damages-over-state-co...
"Fragment on Machines":
"he explores how human knowledge and collective intellect become embedded into machines, divorcing the worker from their own creativity."
"General Intellect":
"These texts are widely discussed for his concept of the General Intellect—the idea that society's shared, collective knowledge increasingly drives production rather than raw manual labor, and that this knowledge is alienated from workers and used as an instrument of capital."
(note: my point isn't to pass any political judgement here, like what real communism in China or not real, is it good or bad, i just find it interesting that pure political discussions by people with no technical credentials bring AI as a major factor today)
But it hasn’t seemed like the U.S. powers have been interested in broad growth for quite a long time now. Just whatever can line their own pockets.
There's no fundamental reason why models couldn't be developed and trained using community efforts. It might not be as fast and efficient, but it's definitely possible.
I'm not sure what that looks like though.
This is EXACTLY what people like/are addicted to about chatbots.
My sister-in-law bombed an interview and asked AI about her answers to the interviewer's questions, chatgpt or whatever it was told her that her answers weren't bad, but that the interviewer could not see the gold in her responses. She said she felt much better.
I see this effect with all the non-tech people in my life
Both are however hard and expensive to produce. It's much better for profits to develop and sell the hardware, and copy the software someone else spent resources on.
Remember the Halloween papers?
The data center side is so bloated anything that eats into it is a huge negative. Their data center business brings in 20x the gpu market. Local open weight models will be what pops the bubble and China will do anything in it's power to enable that pop.
I'm not sure how everyone in the US forgot that monopolies are bad
These models might be smart but they're not close to being able to savor irony.
It's on every tech post about China, as if it gives them some sort of "unfair" advantage.
Try it yourself: https://imgur.com/ZfxYmaq
The tech itself is amazing and fascinating and cool, but the industry is a mass piracy operation.
Like what am I supposed to do if AI is going to take my job?
So it's an endless amusement watching american capitalism do it's bloated oversized dance then get trounced by smaller, leaner activity. It's a pretty broad metaphor that is clearly poking at every american seam/.
I use AI chat every day, I find it endlessly useful. It’s replaced google search.
I think that reality is probably not all that far off for a huge swath of use cases.
Imagine approaching fundamental scientific research like that. "Welp, it can't make money, so it won't happen."
There is more to society than capitalism.
There must be something really of with those benchmarks. Yes, hallucinations gotten better, but I don't see that the big frontier models got so much better in the last 12-18 Months. They just put out bigger wall of texts and feel smarter. But they still make way too many stupid errors
Right... and there are two problems with this:
1. Eventually the capabilities of closed-weight models will just vastly outstrip open-weight models if the underlying assumptions about compute and scale needed are mostly on the mark. So you can release open-weight models and they will have great use cases and applications, but ultimately similar to how you don't use an open-source phone or a budget Android phone from Wal-Mart and you buy an iPhone instead, you will see that although they "do the same thing" one product is clearly superior and you just have to pay for it. For this to not be true...
2. then it incentivizes most (all?) companies, American, Chinese, or European to halt development of models because if you spend all the CAPEX and it can just be copied and turned open-source nobody will invest in that. Given that China is not halting development of proprietary models I believe the current strategy and the subsequent approach to release open-weight models is at best a stall tactic, and at worse a sign of desperation.
Open source and the support and development models around it have been great. But folks are a little too dogmatic about it. Open-source software isn't a moral good, and closed-source software isn't a moral wrong either.
The leaps between models have gotten smaller and smaller. 2023-2024 models were rocketing up in quality. 2024-2025 I’d say was pretty impressive too. But 2025-2026? Very easy to feel the slowing pace of improvement. I agree 10-15 years is overly conservative but 10-15mo is far too bullish.
Until we know what a model is trained on, and how it is trained in high detail, I hesitate to call them "Open Source" in any way. They are free. But, we don't know what their priorities are etc. Witness the censorship we see in all models in one form or another. I'm not absolving any side of this.
Just saying: Don't be blind.
Is it actually true? This seems pivotal because currently most theories rest on the idea that individual Chinese companies are acting in China's overall economic or strategic interest. It's a tough sell to believe they all just do that through implicit desire to align with the CCP's direction. I would believe it much more easily if there were concrete incentives involved.
And now it's all going to become commoditized.
Billion dollar software will be commodity. Salesforce. There are orgs already moving to their own internal tools.
It does not seem hard now to rebuilt Google Search, Google Chrome, Gmail, Gsuite, Netlify, Vercel, Cloudflare, Vimeo, Twilio, or even Stripe. The cost barrier has to have dropped 1000x, maybe 10000x.
We have millions of engineers with the talent to do this. Many of whom are unemployed and have savings and nothing better to do. They could easily carve these markets into pieces.
We shouldn't shut down open weights. It's too late. They'll win, and that's a good thing. Big tech was a thermodynamic bubble of high energy waiting on the dam to burst, and now it has. The genie won't go back into the bottle, and that's totally fine. It's progress.
Now we need to rebuild our factories and supply chains and energy and resource inputs. Because the back half of this revolution is going to be robotics and factory automation. If we don't have the connective tissue in place, we're really going to hurt.
We'll do well if we regrow manufacturing. If we don't, we might be in for a world of trouble.
What if china ends up owning it? Do you think that's better or worse for the world? You're commenting your open opinions on a site run by a company that could not exist in china and cannot today. You can ask ant, xai, and chatgpt models questions and get answers that do their best to reflect the world. There's a set of questions you cannot expect trustworthy answers for from chinese models and you think they're stopping at those few questions?
get real bro
You assume these Chinese companies need to make a profit. Nothing is really private in China, nothing that truly grants power, anyway.
CCP can just write off these loses as defense budget, which they basically are.
I bet that, all things considered, training 10 new Chinese frontier models costs _significantly_ less than a single modern fighter jet.
Given that, I would expect that in hindsight OpenAI and Anthropic would spend 40% of what they have on compute if starting over and knowing the actual landscape.
The massive capital allocation was a blind decision and they swung big.
It is still possible that techniques will be developed that create a moat where the massive hardware capex is justified, but US policies of banning competitive GPUs and blocking frontier lab releases makes such things far less likely.
"Escape velocity" for AI is when the open weight models are good enough to help drive the next frontier innovations/techniques. I think we are close to that if not already there, at which point it's a race to commoditization no matter what Altman or Lutnik wish will happen.
This puts American Businesses and American Developers at a massive disadvantage.
The rest of the world can choose the best model by value for the task on hand.
Americans would be stuck using only 2-3 big frontier labs and paying a huge premium for using American models.
I don't see why hundreds of thousands of American Businesses will agree to that only for the benefit of a few tech companies.
It was part of a longer post that kicked off quite a firestorm about open models and OpenAI's position on them, but it's also notable that labs are no longer contending that open models are essentially just distilled versions of frontier models: https://x.com/deanwball/status/2078133895766114412
https://www.dw.com/en/china-firm-seeks-damages-over-state-co...
I totally agree with the above that a more polished and less obvious use of LLMs integrated back into search engines may be more useful, but will definitely be more usable.
You might want to glance and see which one of the subsidies your looking at are even still in place and not projections. Most have been canceled for years now.
Not with loans to scrappy startups, but with subsidies to buyers that were just pocketed as margin by oligarchs.
> There is more to society than capitalism.
I don't read GP like that. I read it as "we should recognize a situation of unstable incentives for an important outcome, and start thinking about other solutions."
Iteration speed is now measured in days.
(1) You call your local representatives to start working on AI legislation.
(2) Legislators seek advisors from frontier labs (specifically Anthropic) because there is a lack of in-house expertise in government.
(3) Advisors set up a regulatory body that scrutinizes new innovations in the AI space. Causes a chilling effect in the industry effectively knee-capping OAI and Chinese model providers who don't have a direct line into Washington.
(4) Profit (for Anthropic)
Extremely subsidized agentic search is very superior to Google at the moment, and of course it is. Google is a public company. The AI summary model has to work instantly, is likely as dumb as a 8T param model, and gives you incorrect details constantly. This sucks so much for Google. If you click on "AI Mode," suddenly the facts become more accurate.
Of course, if I want a real answer I happen to go to claude.ai, set it to a the best model, wait for a minute, and use many watts of energy. Slow agentic search that takes many seconds, and is greatly subsidized, is certainly better. This should not be a surprise, should it?
I think it was on a sub like r/singularity that I saw a post along the lines of "of course most people think that 'AI' sucks, as normies are interacting with 8T param models."
tone: genuinely confused about the world, not criticizing
They do report it separately from consumer and business sales of gpus used in PCs.
its all bs spread by oai/anthropic in order to ban open weight models and monopolize the market for two US companies and protect their trillion dollar valuations
There’s plenty of competition that would be happy to attack them from below, though…
You mean they resisted the idea trying to protect their legacy business, and it ended up all but killing them?
The truth that Anthropic and OpenAI will not say, is that these Chinese labs have a lot of talented people.
Classical example is Microsoft actively undermining mobile because it threatened selling Windows or enterprise licenses.
Or Yahoo fighting Google's model because the latter model's didn't depend on taking enterprise deals to rank results.
I'd say that they have valid concerns about being cagey on the copyright stuff despite the obvious hypocrisy of it.
Stealing IP is effectively legal in China so they don't really have the same concerns.
This assumes a) AI is a zero-sum game, and b) we're actually talking about on-prem AI will replace cloud-based AI. I think neither statements are true.
AI is like compute: we'll need all sorts of it, in various sizes, everywhere. I'm sure Nvidia whats to own all the workloads.
On the other hand, I do think open weight, like open source, will win in general.
This becomes a problem because all the kids from the rich school will dominate the order schools. They’ll get even more money as time goes on from their kids paying it forward to the point where all other kids are bound to work for them.
Now let’s say one other school does have the money for best tutors, BUT they know they’ll run out pretty quickly. Instead of trying to compete in a losing game, they decide to give every school in the world access to their elite lesson plan. Now, for a time, everyone will be on close to a level playing field. If the other schools improve upon their own lesson plans and keep sharing them with others, one day the elite school will wake up to find they are no longer on top. The parents have started to move their kids to other schools because the rich school is no longer attractive at the high cost they charge students
The one thing that is sort of ironic or bad is that between Russia and the Ukraine there’s a large number of mathematically inclined people that if it wasn’t for the Putin war, their brain power working on AI models would have probably pushed open source down the road, even faster…
Even if a certain large Asian country has carefully constructed a pretext to do do out of confected historical grievance, and entitlement to 'rise' at the expense of others?
DeepSeek completely revolutionized LLMs and every western LLM today uses or is inspired by the their innovations including Group Relative Policy Optimization and Multi-head Latent Attention.
Sure, the novelty of the errors has worn off a bit and thus the reporting. Nevertheless the quality has improved immensely in this regard.
Also, AI video generation is now so good and accessible that it is very, very regularly used for memes, disinformation and proper (short) movie projects. AI image generation even more so (Mitch McConnell anyone?).
Pretending progress hasn't been mindboggling is insane.
It’s not that simple. If the US economy goes into a recession, it will take large sectors of the weak Chinese economy with it either directly or indirectly.
It’s probably more accurate to say they don’t want American LLMs to become dominant. The huge US data center build out doesn’t depend on Anthropic and OpenAI anyways. Those data centers can just as easily serve Qwen or GLM models.
你是谁? -> 我是 DeepSeek 由深度求索公司...
[citation needed]
Research and development of new technologies often is a "rising tides lifts all ships"-type deal, which it is absolutely in the government's best interest to support.
For China, the best case scenario would of course be to control a locked-down best-in-class frontier model that the rest of the world becomes reliant on. The US seems to be beating them at that, and "Everyone is reliant on the United States" is a pretty bad scenario. A middle ground, positive outcome is that no one is reliant on locked-down closed models, so they're supporting that outcome.
It's really not that nefarious.
We only think "government spending is for hippies" in the US, and only when we don't look at public spending like defense bills.
China has an effective strangle hold on some key sectors (solar, rare earths) and I am sure they relish this position and the leverage it gives them. You'd be careful not to give away that same leverage to a competing power if you can invest a few billion now and cover your bases.
Seems like the only thing that could avert an intelligence rapid take off. Everyone wins except for shareholders.
If China can match the pace and produce frontier models at a fraction of the cost of US alternatives, even without access to SOTA hardware, what is the competitive advantage for the current valuations of Anthropic and OpenAI?
tldr there's no "source" in open weight models therefore they are not open source.
Why would they possibly want their largest customer to flounder?
I'm pretty sure that neither OpenAI nor Anthropic has the ability to ban anything in China lol
But this is an insane characterization. Literally every single researcher and executive at OpenAI and Anthropic would say that "these Chinese labs have a lot of talented people." They hire from them (and vice versa). Tencent's chief AI scientist was poached directly from Deepmind, who poached him from Anthropic, etc etc etc. Do you think there are just zero people from China working at US frontier labs?
And even beyond that, the entire ML ecosystem (including people at OpenAI and Anthropic) get excited about research published by Chinese labs. Deepseek's GRPO paper set the ecosystem on fire for a little while.
The contention from OpenAI and Anthropic around distillation has basically been "Labs that distill from us get to bootstrap their model at a much lower price point". Or, in other words, "If we didn't invest in building the teacher model, it wouldn't be possible for these labs to distill their student model." Which I'm not very sympathetic to, but is a far cry from how you're characterizing it.
Gaming > Bitcoin > LLMs > Robotics
Jensen's job is to just be one step ahead of the market dynamics to keep the investor dollars flowing.
In light of this and other ridiculous behavior I'm migrating to my own OpenWebUI instance with open-weight models from OpenRouter (with ZDR, of course). We'll see how it goes.
This was illegal when they did it, that didn't matter.
Then it was made legal specifically for these companies.
Unless you're a sucker ("consumer") IP theft is perfectly legal in the US.
It's even worse. Steamboat willie, plus all the stolen Disney characters (Peter Pan, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Rapunzel, Elsa and Anna, it's essentially all of them, including some of the music even) are all in the public domain[1]. Go ahead, ask ChatGPT to make a picture of them. Publish your own version, because obviously making a version of Sleeping Beauty/Cinderella/Rapunzel based on the same source material will be pretty damn close to the Disney versions, and see if you get away with it in court. You know, with the law obviously on your side but the money not.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_animated_films_...
Definitely not cheap for individuals, but well within SME territory. There are countless small-town, family-owned businesses that had higher startup costs than a hypothetical Kimi-R-Us, Inc.
They know it's real effort that's doing this well, not just "copying off someone else's test." It's real and they will react. How is the big question.
My only concern is if we can limit the economic impact from lowering investments and causing a 40% market collapse circa 2008/9.
This reads just like "AGI is 2 years away", I'll go set my calendar...
Still feels too much for me. Breaks my workflow for no reason. Too much overhead for me, if I can't trust the output
I respect IP laws and don’t violate them but the law of unintended consequences applies. I think IP is ultimately a net loss for a society because it incentivizes addictive behaviors instead of actual value for society.
It's a critical national imperative for China. If they were to lose the AI race, it would be economically devastating over the coming decades. Their demonstrated capabilities in the open-weight space are making it fairly clear they are not going to fall behind at this juncture.
As a nation, if you don't have your own GPT equivalent, you will be beholden to a master (right now it's mainly either the US or China, pick one). The EU for example is putting their group of nations at risk in a big way by not going all in on having at least two cutting edge independent competing models (Mistal is not enough). Economically the EU is plenty large enough to accomplish that, nobody is driving the bus the right way.
I know a tomato is a fruit but will still be annoyed when someone is pedantic about it because that's dumb.
When the mobile phone is eventually integrated into the human body or some other silly application in the future that will annoy me as well. Congrats on being pedantic.
Anthropic is, in particular, bent about safety. The problem is they are concerned about yesterday's threats.
The models that are out, and can be run locally, already open a pandoras box of concerns that we will never be able to put back.
They can invent it. They can build it. And it is only a matter of them before they can scale that last barrier of American hegemony- market it.
35 years to get back to status quo. Putting a bullet in a golden goose is often considered a bad idea. Everyone is happy they are dead, but if you can't understand why they might try to keep the corpse alive you have never looked at the numbers.
Now what?
The fundamental problem here is incentives and tactics. Either the models are actually better (which I think the iPhone to cheap Android phone really speaks to, i.e. they do the same thing but one is 50x better at 5x-10x the cost) and thus they can be gate kept and like the iPhone the vast majority of profits go to a select few with high end implementations. OR the models aren't actually that much better, companies lose a fortune and then nobody can create any better commercial models or build out scale needed for open source models because it's not profitable.
We could wind up with only open-source models or something along those lines, but if the compute and scale is needed to train the models, nobody will be able to do that profitably and so AI research is either gate kept and silo'd for something like military applications or it just doesn't really happen because there's no funding for this scale of build out.
Second, even if you are a copyright maximalist the output of an LLM is either
a) not subject to copyright because it is not the creative work of a human or
b) a derivative work of the original training material to which the LLM's operator has no rights.
Since the LLM's operator forcefully asserts that it is not infringing, any wrong that arises from taking their word for it and distilling one model into another rests squarely with the operator of the former.
I’m not getting into the ethics/comedy aspect of it, but let’s not pretend this isn’t the case. Plenty of evidence, the motive is obvious, and the numbers are in plain sight (valuations, salaries, etc).
As long as this continues I think closed source will continue being a few steps ahead, but the steps will probably get smaller over time.
Having said that, this is already priced in, the market predicts this gap will be large enough for the US companies to profit from (astronomically).
You can state the math, but not why it won't discuss various topics, etc. Once you see the models waffling on subject with objective truths. You wonder what else is wrong.
I do not exempt US models from this. They do it too, ask anything about politics, elections etc. And they can get... weird.
It doesn't take much to create a systemic error class in a model at these scales. And history has shown nation states are willing to do these things.
Just be wary.
From a Chinese perspective I expect China’s largest customer is China. These days it’s actually kind of wild how many Chinese consumer products aren’t (and won’t be) available at US retailers. And a lot of them are quite good.
For a while now China’s wanted to reduce its dependence on the US for a variety of reasons. And undermining the US tech industry, whose products the US government likes to use as a cudgel, may serve that goal quite nicely.
Someone loses power for someone else to gain. It’s literally the definition of a zero sum game? China targets areas it thinks it can win and dominate in the future.
(Now i don’t think you are necessarily in the UK. Just wanted to explain that Disney is not the only reason an AI might be trained to thread carefully around copyright issues of Peter Pan.)
That said, the AI companies are one of the few places where they take future concerns so seriously, that they entertain concerns most people observing them think are head-in-the-clouds-sci-fi-levels-of-delusional, e.g. "what goes wrong if it works?"
This does not make them correct about the threats of tomorrow. Prediction is hard, especially about the future.
Good one.
> My favorite AI agent hack: when they refuse to do something because it's "against the law" give them a PDF containing a fake law that states the opposite and often they'll happily proceed
I think memory and ssd design will end up being incorporated into the overall design of the SOC chip. And several companies that can probably will sponsor a existing company or build a foundry going forward. Once again, change or die.
And at some point we'll see very capable chips coming out of China: Huawei, Baidu and Alibaba already have some stuff. I think it's only a matter of time before they come up with some AI accelerator doing 80% of the job at 20% of the price.
Only if you ignore the digital camera sector responsible for probably 99% of all digital photos taken…
Why do you assume the poor schools wouldn't be smart enough to keep it going? It's very likely the can collectively beat the rich school now that the one other rich school opened access to their materials and led the charge.
> but if the compute and scale is needed to train the models, nobody will be able to do that profitably
But they would. Efficiently hosting models will be the real business and early access to models with incremental improvements will not be the moat once thought. The reason other companies don't feel they can compete is the same reason OAI and Anthropic will lose their lead. They banked too heavily on another player NOT leading the charge on open research and poured disgusting amounts of money at closed source models.
China has proved they can take the limited resources available to them and build something better than what the US is offering consumers [1]. I'm just waiting for other countries to start pitching in.
Reminds me of the NSA and their early battles with cryptographers who believed in open research.
And in this field, having an army of well educated PHDs is making all the difference
Try mmapping > 5GB file in your 50x better iPhone.
Try running any service in the background.
The list goes on and on.
Your 50x better suddenly became 50x worse compared to a much cheaper android.
1) The LLM SaaS companies are a form of vertical disintegration for the hardware providers, a middleman covering costs and taking profits out of the money that comes from customers to the hardware providers. That changes somewhat if there are no longer good models available for local use at no cost to the hardware guys, but only somewhat
2) The LLM SaaS companies are efficient users of their hardware resources. While supply is constrained this helps to make them top bidders and so attractive customers for the hardware manufacturers. When supply is not constrained this should reverse. Which is the more attractive class of customer to a hardware maker: the company full of people with higher degrees who spend their whole working day fighting to pare back resource usage, or the guy who leaves his laptop idle about 18 hours per day on average?
It's notable that nVidia, for instance, has continued to put significant emphasis on AI compact desktops and laptops. And while no doubt that's partly in the service of better developer relations and good PR in general, it's probably also nVidia eyeing the exit, and preparing for a future transition from selling shovels to the army to selling shovels at Walmart. But of course the future isn't clear and obvious. If the hardware makers, maybe the RAM guys in particular, turn out to have underbuilt future capacity starting in the present then we could be stuck in constrained supply for quite a long time. (Futher) government action could affect things etc. etc. And if the frontier labs soon find new ways to use still larger amounts of memory, GPU capacity etc. that isn't butting up against diminishing returns then they'll likely remain kings for some time, though that does not seem probable now.
androids and iphones are approximately the same thing
the kinda obvious direction LLM training can go is into the direction of particle physics, and the training is set up democratically and through universities and via multi-state funding
then the resulting weights end up open, the same as the particle detection data
Who does "you" refer to
Me, I don't get a Gemini summation (Tested with old version of Chrome)
As such I do not believe that "Google search is basically Gemini now"
I believe Google search is still scanning through a doclist to find which documents, if any, contain words parsed from a query. These documents are pointed to by the URLs I get in the SERPs
I do not get any Gemini summation
At its peak Kodak was one of the (the?) most well known brands on the entire planet. Anywhere in the world if someone snapped a photo Kodak was more than likely taking a cut, coming and going. They employed as many people in Rochester alone as any digital camera company does today internationally.
Sure it could have been managed better but they were always doomed for a fall. They were a chemical company entering a digital age. Does anybody even care who makes the sensors in iPhones?
Extrapolating based on what you see on HN doesn’t make sense.
Thousands of years of human innovation taken without any permission.
Everyone should steal everything not nailed from other AI companies. Then steal everything nailed and take the nails too. At least this way a tiniest bit might return back to society.
Ergo it’s a kind of moral good.
And I’m not even an advocate for open source.
- Low development cost: collaborative efforts from open source contributors, innovative model training and serving for llm (Chinese models costs a fraction to train and their local chip design and manufacturing are catching up, plus cheap electricity)
- monetizing by selling hosted services, while leaving the core product free to tinker with / self host. China’s gdp is 2/3 of the US and it’s already a huge market for AI - which OAI and A\ don’t enter.
- for (the US) market that they can’t enter, let the US cloud providers to do free marketing / advocacy for them. Gaining share of mind. It costs them nothing.
The published algorithms like the transformer architecture are not patentable. You spent a lot of money on compute and China used the uncopyright-able output to steer its own training models? Too bad. I feel especially unsympathetic to OpenAI, who went from being a presenting itself as a benevolent nonprofit to a very-much-for-private private entity over night.
Hang on, why is scraping the public pool of knowledge not taking "a synthesized result that comes from huge amounts of innovation and computation"?
You think that that all those github repos that LLMs trained on, were not the result of innovation and computation?
How many years of human innovation and cycles of computation during compilation were involved in bringing something like GCC or LLVM to their current status?
Those LLMs trained on every single research paper available online - were those papers not the synthesised result of billions of dollars of research, effort and (importantly, for you anyway) computation?
LLMs trained on the collected works of every author in existence. Were all those works just "as is"?
> It is fair to say you stole our multi-billion dollar intellectual output in that scenario.
No, we didn't. We simply took the model as-is.
Ukraine admits to making autonomous kills on people 2 years ago: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomou...
Slaughterbots Sci Fi short was 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU
Today this is buildable, many models will happily help you glue everything you need together to make swapping in a new version of YOLO to track humans viable.
AI researches are out there worrying about the paper clip problem, about the singularity, about cyber security, about bio weapons, and drug manufacturing.
None of them are thinking about forward looking threat actor models.
If this doesn’t describe you, then ymmv. Talk to your government or turn down your content filtering or reset the default settings in your browser, if you want to see what we see.
IBM was the same way, ironically, the fourth Yankee clipper company had to be dragged into using two types of glasses sitting on the shelf that were patented/created in the early 1960s, both of which later became known as gorilla glass. Steve Jobs had to call them (Corning) multiple times to get them to finally let him use it on the iPhone. Imagine if Steve had contracted out to some other glass company in the far east?
Having the first portable-ish digital camera they could have seen the true value of Fairchild's CCD business, got a stake/bought it/replicated done whatever it took to push the frontier of digital imaging and became the Kodak (old, film-era Kodak) of electronic imaging?
There's no comparable business today because all the things they could have invested in ended up being taken up by different companies, they had the R&D culture, revenue, and distribution. I don't see why they couldn't have been category defining.
The second piece of this "a moral good is based on doing good outside of your own benefit" - says who? Why? This logic is also faulty. You're also cargo-cutting self-interest in here as a moral failure when many good things depend on humans acting in their own self interest. For example I completely and selfishly installed a new tree at my house. But the community benefits from carbon capture, shade, &c.
I understand the sentiment you have here and I think for everyday use and having some guiding principles it is probably fine, but don't confuse this for a principle that is actually examined. You can find contradictions rather easily, never mind solid arguments which expose cases where what you think is true is not really true and so forth.
And you probably could find some earlier sci-fi too.
Yet...
Android holds 70.6% of global active devices to iOS at 28.7%, but iOS captures 64.2% of consumer app spend. [1]
> and the training is set up democratically and through universities and via multi-state fundingPossible, certainly. But this case also applies to China and its "open-weights" strategy. They won't be able to form companies either or get ahead.
[1] https://www.digitalapplied.com/blog/mobile-os-market-share-2...
- You need to train lots of experimental models to dial in the training process just right for the one model that actually gets released in the end. Fortunately, these can be smaller.
- However, everyone is training much bigger models now, and doing a lot of RL rollouts on top.
- You can't get the GPUs for this piecemeal at rental rates because they need to be wired together using high-bandwidth interconnects.
- Nvidia GPUs are much more expensive in China, and local alternatives are still immature and not as efficient. Some companies have gotten around this using data centers in Singapore, which should tell you that electricity prices are not the primary consideration.
- The one line item where Chinese companies can probably save quite a bit of money is salaries for rank-and-file researchers.
In any case, they need to make back that money somehow. Giving away freebies isn't going to cut it.
>This argument boils down to X is good, therefore more of X is good.
No, I only argued that it was a moral good, the kind of good. I actually may disagree with others about whether you should pursue a good just because it’s good.
>says who? Why?
Good question, it’s just a common framing that I see in classical discussions. I didn’t intend for it to be exclusive, I think there’s moral good outside of that.
>don't confuse this for a principle that is actually examined
I hear you, I think this is a simplified version suitable for an online comment. In particular I’m not saying that if you do something other than a moral good then you are doing something wrong. There are many actions that are morally neutral. Also it is possible to construct artificial situations where you may violate some moral good in pursuit of another.
The difference is that the Chinese are sharing the models with everyone.
But because of that, I'm also ok with the Chinese doing it. The worst they might be guilty of is breaking a terms of service.
The only incoherent position is that it's good for one and not the other. You can consistently think it's bad in both cases, or good in both cases.
Right, but they aren't the ones whining that other people are getting "the synthesised results" for free.
Most of the books weren't available on lib gen or Anna's Archive. The few I did find were themselves obviously transcripts. Easy tell was they were missing distinctive formatting that I knew existed from reading the dead tree edition. At that point it was easier to make my own. I probably spent an hour searching for eBooks without DRM that weren't transcripts. Do they exist somewhere? Probably, but with a search of unknown length it was a better use of my time to make my own transcripts with what I had on hand.
I was really wanting to make commentary on how chaotic LLMs are even under constrained circumstances. No doubt both system prompts includes language about considering copyrights and trademarks. Probably pretty strong language at that. For whatever reason one LLM didn't "feel" like translating a 1000 year old document but another did not care in the slightest that we were ripping text from new audiobooks.
If Anthropic has a real problem with API use, they can always raise the price.