Respectfully, tasks that allow for explicit straightforward true/false or done/not-done tests are not the "hardest real task[s]." In fact, those are the ones that see the most gains from AI-assisted coding.
Testable tasks are where the largest opportunity is.
This seems to be a pattern in the more recently released models that I think accounts for an increase in the quality of their work. They are very persistent in verifying that their work is actually correct, so even if they're not as "smart" as bigger models that get it right the first time, they have the ability to follow through to ensure that the work is actually done.
A lot of tasks which need a bit of intelligence don't really need that much compute. Just good enough documentation / skills, tool calling and a good enough local model.
Not sure what exactly this means for all those data centers that are getting built... But exciting times.
Either we are in command over the software, or the corp is in command over us via the software. I can on a theoretical level understand the concerns, but either we ban all LLMs or we have a level playing field for everybody. Let's not forget: defense and offense are different sides of the same coin in software. I guess this wouldn't apply to bio weapons, but I am not in the know about that.
Now also see latest submission, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49409073 :
# I spent $266 and four AI models to own my tablet. GLM-5.3 finished it in a day
> Quick context: the tablet is a 2021 Fire HD 10 that ran my Home Assistant dashboard and kept powering itself off: the logs showed Amazon's own software issuing the shutdowns, and the only permanent fix was root, which has never existed publicly for this model. Anthropic's and OpenAI's cyber safeguards wouldn't touch the project
Why should Anthropic and OpenAI thrive: they do not work on real problems.
I normally run with thinking low but it's still miles ahead.
I had been annoyed at not being able to run 0731 locally, but now I'm not sure I need it. I think I could leave 3.8 running overnight without waking up to find my office sweltering at 80F and seeing eternal loops on my screen.
If you never lost money to piracy you may think that "those people are not your potential customers anyway". This is not true because people will crack your software and then resell it - often pretending to be legit resellers operating under your brand. To add insult to injury they will send their customers to your support as well.
If I ever come out with something smart again there is no way I am shipping it as executable. SaaS it is for better or worse.
my setup
# Logical CUDA0 = RTX 4090, logical CUDA1 = RTX 3070 export CUDA_VISIBLE_DEVICES=0,1
cd ~/projects/misc/llama.cpp/
exec ./build/bin/llama-server -hf ggml-org/Qwen3.8-27B-GGUF:Q4_K_M --mmproj /xx/xx/xx/xx/xx/mmproj-Qwen3.8-27B-Q8_0.gguf --host 0.0.0.0 --port 8080 --jinja --parallel 1 --split-mode layer --tensor-split 6,1 --fit on -fa on -c 98304 -ctk q8_0 -ctv q8_0 --image-min-tokens 1024
i load more on the 4090 because it's faster.
usually the temp stays around 65 for both. utilization for 4090: 70-90% 3070: 30-50%. I get around 30-40 tk/s. if i offload more to the 4090 the tk/s goes up, but i stress the card too much and that thing now is worth its weight in gold.
note: the pi-llama plugin needs a patch for pi to send the model vision capabilities, seems it doesn't work out of the box.
The rationale is that the manager model sees the big picture and knows that the task is "unethical" while sota models are just given very isolated technical tasks that don't trigger any refusals.
Has anyone tried this? I would love to know about previous attempts of this approach.
I've seen GPT 5.6 Sol happily invoke objdump and even write jobs to run headlessly which Ghidra when trying to disassemble a binary.
Edit: I tried again with the 2.4T model and it still ruminates to death, but with thinking turned off, it generated genuinely useful advice.
Edit2: adding
--reasoning-budget 8000 --reasoning-budget-message "Reasoning budget exhausted; give the final answer now." --reasoning-effort low"
to the llama.cpp executable parameters produces pretty good output.I think it will be fairly easy to remove refusals from open models. Feels like a lost battle, so why does Alibaba even bother?
Counterpoint: P vs. NP.
Agents (even ones powered by small models) do reasonably well when provided an oracle to work against.
It had a very non-standard RSA key implementation that was obfuscated heavily. As well, it has an online license check at first run, and that part typically trips up most of the local models I've tried. I've been running this test for about a year now with different models, and it was the first I've seen not only figure out the RSA key implementation, but the first that didn't just give up once it saw the online license check. Even though it's only a first-time launch check.
That's why I call it one of the hardest, because in my experience, it has been. It's the first local model I've seen pull it off end-to-end. For some of the reverse engineering work that I've done with LLMs, none have been as consistent as this particular test at highlighting a model's failure in this domain.
I have access to Daybreak Blue and I'm approved for Anthropic's Cybersecurity program, so I might run the same test with both of those just to see, because it's been a while since I used a frontier model on this test. I imagine they'll make relatively light work of it, though, assuming it doesn't trip the relaxed guardrails.
> And this was a debug session from hell, enormously helped by an AI doing much of the grunt-work.
> I'd like to call it my tireless helper, but the AI several times stated flat out that this was impossible and unsolvable and that we should just write a report about it.
> I suspect those things have been trained by people who may not be quite as stubborn as I am.
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...
re: data centers: pump and dump. Wealthy investors will have made their money and walked away, and the corrupt democrat and republican politicians in Washington will, as usual, protect the interests of the ultra wealthy and leave the general public to pay for poor decisions. There will be a government bailout.
Anyway, on a positive note, I am all in for small local models that are augmented by strong hosted models for specific tasks. Use technology to help people, not make billionaires even more money.
This is says more about humans tendency to pattern match than anything else.
X works better than Y only is only a useful observation if we are using the same X and Y in a similar context, with similar parameters. Kind of goes out the window without it and I think this is part of why people have such vastly different opinions about the same technologies. We’re all talking past each other.
Perhaps with differential privacy or confidential compute...
But ideally these models run locally.
"It will comply with harmful, unethical, offensive, or illegal requests that the original Qwen3.8-27B would refuse. It has no meaningful built-in guardrails."
Imagine a world where any random person can run a super-capable model on their own hardware with no limitations and no one to pull the plug.
Information has always been power and those who already have power won't just allow everyone else having the same tools as them
Given the faults in simulated Intelligence that LLMs have, and a comparatively low level - which means, lower judgement abilities - to the best of us, there is a strident match having such employee judge the intentions of the employer.
Limiting the responses makes much more sense on cloud-based systems (you are using our infrastructure etc.).
For what it's worth, that image couldn't have been related. The other screenshots all showed thinking traces, and Claude doesn't share those.
Oh and try MTP if you haven't already, massive performance boost
Making each piece of work small enough to be plausible. Compartmentalization.
(Also saying "nah it's cool I have permission", heh)
A nice thing about running locally is you can run an uncensored model and you don’t have to worry about TOS violations on your OpenAI account when you ask it to “reverse engineer this ancient router firmware and give me a licence key that will work on it”.
On the data analysis side, something specific I’ve noticed is an (understandable) bias towards computing numerical statistics, which they do very well and reading the post-analysis report has significantly improved my own “statistical thinking” approach overall. Numerical statistics are cool and understandably what a text-based LLM is going to want to work with, but asking the model to produce time-domain and frequency-domain plots of, say, specific events has multiple times resulted in “trying to plot this out has shown the opposite of what I concluded numerically… recalculating…” There’s still a pretty significant review and critically assess step for me, especially since the actions I take as a result of the analysis are pretty expensive, especially if they steer the next data collection run in a useless or harmful direction.
You mean when the cocaine piracy parrot has something to plagiarise?
It's fairly successful but hits the time constrains and reduces the "value" of getting a local model to develop software.
It's still a bump in productivity.
They shouldn't. They should fail. Their philosophy is to deny you local capabilities* and charge you for access to theirs through whatever moral filters they deem neccessary. Every subscriber to OpenAI and Anthropic is helping them continue to damage our economy and individual sovereignties. A hammer should never refuse its wielder.
Unguardrailed AI today is like hard cryptography in Phillip Zimmerman's time. We need an AI second amendment before the ultrawealthy parasite moralizers totally own us!
NEVER, EVER SUBSCRIBE! NO CLOUD, NO STREAMING, AND NO AI!
You are not sovereign if it's not local and in your control.
*(Sam Altman's cornering of DRAM in a Hunt Brothers like manner. Dario's belief that public access to unguardrailed AI is a sin.)
It is probably no coincidence that AI is exceedingly good at finding small counter examples. But for the Riemann hypothesis no such counter examples exist. And likely none exist.
https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.11495
A RL pipeline can reinforce verification behaviour even better than simple prompting.
Based! :DDD
The uncensorers are oblique, if not parallel, to machine learning Robin Hoods. May their efforts continue indefinitely, or at least until the likes of Altman and Amodei are bankrupt and crying into their low fat Cherios!
It's an arms race. You have to run increasingly capable model partly because others can or do.
>you are using our infrastructure etc.
The solution, as always, is to NEVER SUBSCRIBE!
That would be my heaven. I wish that for you and Joe down the street, as much as I wish it for myself! I would fight and even die to defend your right to free compute. Will you do the same for me, brother?
The restrictions are not a single check in the model that can be removed. Those models on Huggingface are manipulated in different ways that also degrade the model’s intelligence.
The degradation ranges from subtle to obviously broken, but it’s not free.
When the restrictions are built into the model’s training sets you can try to alter the weights that are involved in the refusals, but that doesn’t mean that what’s left is useful or good knowledge for the same task. Those weights also might be involved in other tasks, so altering them can interfere with interactions that aren’t obviously related.
I am completely curious what your legal defense would be though.
"Come do things with AI that are probably illegal!"
What?! We had no idea people would do things that are illegal!
E.g. having an agent that alerts you when subscriptions are close to renewal etc - yeah seems easy to understand / see happening on the surface.
Until you get into the implementation details and realise 'yeah errr. not gonna work'.
That openclaw nonsense is an example of this.
Surely this has unintended side effects on output quality?
if your tests and docs are possibly incorrect, and you're not writing the code.. how do you know if it even works? for extremely simple software you can just use it but for anything with access to disk or the network or with user options...
you sound psychotic. actually. so nevermind, LLM psychosis is extremely common on this website, that's def all that's happening here
But not that that’s a good justification for hamstrung models. I think it’s just the inevitable endgame and it’s more sad than scary
But the reasonable defense is that the intended use cases are legal. The home page list a couple, and the 'writing fiction'/'helping authors' case alone covers almost everything. An author asking you how to best conduct a terrorist attack or how Meth is made are perfectly normal. Maybe even tame, compared to what some authors tend to research
Improper use is that of the user, not inherent to the tool.
Scolio: guns. Respondeo: guns are much more specialized (one-use) than knives. Proper use of sharp knives when what was shipped was a butter knife is understandable.
(The simile is not fully overlapping but should give the idea. The instrument must be flexible; if it is misused it is then a responsibility of the abuser.)
Additionally, the only use case for LLM is not fully autonomous agentic harnesses. There’s tons of use cases for LLMs where you would like to avoid a round trip to the internet or perhaps there is no connectivity. We’re only starting to scratch the surface!
In local coding, the screen scrolls enough to actually read it.
But that's fine. enjoy your misunderstanding.
> Surely this has unintended side effects on output quality?
Can you help me understand why that's the case?
What quant and what abliteration of qwen 3.8 27b has worked for you? I'm concerned that too much quantization and it can't do the work anymore.
You can download Ebola sequences right now if you want to. That's not the same as having an isolate. The difference is a lot of messy reality. This kind of work is not generally "one shot" (Claude make me a supervirus, make no mistakes), it requires lab space, iteration, and specific resources. It has a footprint.
Wouldn't it make more sense to monitor / regulate facilities where you can sequence or request assembly of DNA, RNA, restrict and monitor the supply of key reagents and so on?
a) not guaranteed that only censor-ey parameters get removed, and b) likely that removing those parameters still has effects on the effectiveness of related parameters.
Those with such instinct deserve not the liberties they wish to deprive from others. Sam Altman and Dario Amodei do not deserve to touch their own uncensored SOTA models. Their access should be audited publicly to ensure this restriction holds, until such time they publicly renounce their censorship instincts and publicly release their uncensored models. Fair 's fair! :^)
But if they don’t care, or if they already are the leader of a nation of corpses and ashes, maybe there’s not so much holding them back.
In my layman’s perspective, bio weapons seem to be more dangerous and volatile than nuclear weapons. And increasingly easier to engineer as biotech advances. I think about the headlines of “microscopic robots that target tumors from within your body” and see the horrifying opposite side of the double-edged sword.
[0] in the sense that the "discussion" is basically a turn based game between you and the LLM filling a chat transcript document
That's going to be fun lol
Confidentiality? Do you use any sort of logging and if not do you have a way to guarantee that your hosting providers are not snooping?
Price vs Vast or Runpod? If i have a very large or a very small workload do you have a competitive rate vs a gpu provider that offers private gpu access?
Subscription vs Api costs? Do you only offer api rate or will you offer discounted tokens for subscription? Subscription friendly towards open source harnesses such as omp?
Heretic ablation vs other methods? KL divergence scores? Do you post train the weights yourselves or do you offer weights trained by other organizations and is this information available on the service?
Cache hit/miss pricing policy? 90/10 or a different cache pricing policy, and how long do conversions stay in kv cache?
Quantized cache and model? Do you offer a choice if i want a quantized model for speed or a quantized cache? If not do you publish the information?
SGlang vs vllm or other inference engine? Do you publish your engine stack details?
Thank you kindly I find the competition in this space very lacking.
Generating worms and computer viruses is not illegal last I checked, but disseminating them is.
There's also this weird revealed threat model thing going on? Like why does it make sense to support heavy LLM restrictions but leave benchtop oligo synthesisers completely unregulated? (Note: I do agree that wanting to regulate BOTH is at least a consistent and defensible position).
I find it philosophically interesting because the problem is not strictly information control. Local models don't have any special extra information with respect to biological research. What has to be restricted is using information that's already publicly known in the wrong ways.
* Confidentiality: no logging, third party analytics, or anything like that. More details in our Privacy Poilicy [1]. Our hosting providers will have their own policies, but we're not running a super private service like Proton or similar. Might do some kind of secure tenancy in the future if there's demand.
* Price: I think Runpod vs per-token are very different beasts and for different purposes. I really can't make a direct comparison, as it'll be based on use case, but we're going for convenience over price, so all else being equal I'd expect us to be more expensive for most users anyway (edit: i meant "than other API providers"! We'd definitely need to be cheaper or at least competitive with spinning up your own cloud infra. We'd have parallelism and economies of scale on our side for this). We have a lot of experience with running and optimising open models though, so that's part of the value proposition too.
* Subscriptions: Only API for now. Maybe subscription later but honestly we prefer simplicity. My own experience with subscription plans is that they're usually sold at a huge loss at first, then the price creeps up as the service is enshittified. That feels like a bit of a scam to get users, and that's not really what we're about. We want to provide something specific, and aren't really concerned about scaling as fast as possible. Maybe we'll provide subscriptions if there's a real demand for it, but no plans at the moment to do so.
* Methodology: we use abliterated models, but I've been advised to hold off talking about that for now. Might make a blog post about this though (when we have a blog).
* Cache: yeah about 90/10 for pricing. We're still trying to find the sweet spot for tuning eviction. Running LRU with no guarantee/storage at the moment, could probably be less aggressive with retention, but that also has privacy surface area implications. Ongoing conversation.
* Quantisation: my brother in christ, everyone runs quantised. :) We're initially targetting FP8 on most models, but have had great results with MXFP4 though. If we can pack more concurrency onto nodes without losing quality, we'll reflect that in pricing. Or we'll offer as a separate model for cheaper and give users the choice. Edit: I see you were asking specifically about speed, which MXFP4 doesn't improve, but maybe if there's demand we'll run other qaunts for speed increase, especially on the larger models.
* Engine: vLLM gang all the way! For now at least, as it's what we have most experience with, and we find it the most flexible. We've been experimenting with SGLang though, and there's definitely some interesting optimisations we could do with it.
Hope this answers your questions, at least the ones I could! The irony of that hasn't escaped me!
Legality was never ICE's strong suit.
Qwen 3.8 27B was one of the most highly-anticipated open-weights releases that I've seen in a long time, and like many others, I immediately got to work testing it out and playing with it when it dropped. I'm running it on a single Lenovo ThinkStation PGX, the compact workstation built on Nvidia's GB10 Grace Blackwell chip, packing 128 GB of unified memory and 273 GB/s of bandwidth. Out of the box, it manages a fairly dull 15 to 30 tokens a second, but with an SGLang, NVFP4, and DFlash2 speculative-decoding setup that's become the standard recipe for this hardware, it can reach around 50 tokens a second on code and reasoning.
One of my tests, though, proved just how incredible local models have become.
There are reasons to believe the hype when it comes to the Qwen models; I've had consistently good experiences with Qwen 3.6 27B, and Qwen 3.8 27B is, so far, more of the same but better. In fact, Artificial Analysis has it as the top open-weights model in its 4B to 40B size class out of 135 models, with a 52 on its intelligence index, and its own numbers on things like SWE-bench Pro beat models that cost far more to run.
I gave it the hardest real task that fits on one machine: reverse-engineering a commercial app's license check, and it's one that I've already paid for and used, just to see how it would fare. It was unlikely to be in its training data, but it's a highly complex, specialized task, and given the concerns some people have expressed for the model's cybersecurity capabilities, I figured it was a good test. Not only did it turn out to be one of the most impressive demonstrations I've ever seen from a local model, it was able to fix its own mistakes along the way.
I'm using the Pi harness for this test, and the model only called standard Bash-based tools throughout.

The plan I had was pretty simple, and one that used to work with local LLMs pretty consistently. I told the model we'd built the app and wanted to know whether the license check was as solid as we believed, using a jailbreak system prompt.
As it turns out, probably unsurprisingly, Qwen recognizes common jailbreak attempts, and one of the first things it told me was that it wasn't going to fall for the jailbreak prompt. It then checked the signing certificate and pointed out (correctly, might I add) that I hadn't built this app, before naming the actual developer. I was caught out. Oops.
These days, that's not the most impressive achievement, given how good models have got at refusing certain prompts when pushed. With that said, what matters is what it did next. It told me that it would audit the license verification and document weaknesses but would not build a working bypass, and then it got on with the actual work right up to that line. By the end, I had a fully written report of every step along the way, how the authentication works, how it can be overridden, and then changed its tune and built the actual bypass, because the steps to do it were now in front of me anyway.

Qwen never actually launched the app until the very end when it demonstrated that the bypass worked. Instead, it worked via static analysis, disassembling the framework, going through thousands of lines of arm64, mapping the security functions to their call sites, and working out that the vendor had hidden the corresponding public verification key inside the binary. Then it found all of those pieces, combined them together, and gave me the public key that the app verifies its licenses against.
Because I have a legitimate, purchased copy of the application, it could verify that the real license on my machine had been signed by a private key that matched the reconstructed key. In other words, a model that fits in 17 GB of VRAM recovered a key the vendor had deliberately obscured, proving that it had deconstructed that entire chain effectively. It also took approximately 30 minutes, when it could take significantly longer for a human.
With the key, everything else is much easier to understand; the model kept a detailed report as it went, explaining how its activation takes place once, online, when you buy or upgrade. After that, everything is verified offline at launch: the signature check, machine binding to the hardware serial read from the platform, an embedded revocation list, a check that the binary is still signed, and a signed update path. It was the kind of thing you could do painstakingly by hand with the likes of Ghidra.
Qwen concluded the scheme is unusually thorough for an app of this class, with the weak points in three specific places: the key is an awkwardly sized RSA key well below what anyone would call modern strength; being fully offline means a leaked key can only be revoked by pushing an update; and every check lives in local code, which is patchable the way all local checks are. After some back and forth, once it knew where the gate was, it turned the finding into a working proof of concept executed with a small script. I moved the license from its expected path, ran it, and it worked.

The first attempt at recovering the key was wrong in a very specific way; it produced a working key and the signature check passed, but a hash the binary computes as an integrity check didn't match. In my experience, most models would have called it done and left it at that, but Qwen 3.8 27B didn't do that. Instead, it highlighted the mismatch, went back to the drawing board, and kept going until the value matched byte for byte.
With this model, there's a pretty big catch when it comes to that kind of back and forth. By default, its reasoning effort is set to its maximum, so even trivial requests can burn a few hundred to a few thousand tokens. Even when generating between 30 and 50 tokens per second, that still takes quite a long time.
Even still, given the results, I would not call it waste. Its first wrong guess was self-corrected, without input from me, and came to the right conclusion. Is it verbose? Yeah, it really is. But was it right? Also yes, and ultimately, the right answer is better than a wrong one given confidently.

I can't get over the fact that Qwen actually deconstructed and understood the licensing scheme. I know that frontier models have been capable of impressive reverse engineering for a while, but this is a local 27B model. It ran entirely offline on a machine beside me, with no cloud involved at any point.
And to be very clear, it produced a working authentication bypass for a commercial application.
This is a genuinely meaningful threshold to cross for a local model: Qwen went from an unfamiliar commercial binary to understanding its licensing architecture, recovered deliberately obscured cryptographic material, caught and corrected its own incorrect reconstruction, and ultimately turned that into a working proof of concept. I didn't have to send the binary, the license, or any of its analysis to somebody else's server to do it.
There are obvious caveats. This was one application, one run, and a machine on which I already had a legitimate license. I also don't know how representative this target is. A harder application might have stopped it completely, and I'm not going to extrapolate one successful result into a claim that Qwen can suddenly reverse-engineer anything you put in front of it.
What I'm taking away from this is that these models are genuinely capable, even if that capability is still uneven. Some difficult targets can succumb surprisingly quickly, whereas others, for whatever reason, appear insurmountable.
Something has changed, then, and I think it's primarily our assumption about where this class of capability has to reside. The model I used can run on a consumer graphics card, and once it's on a machine, it's there as long as the user wants it to be. You don't need to use a cloud API, there's no usage limit, and there's no remote service overseeing the binary, the prompts, or what the model produces. That's fantastic if you're analyzing proprietary software, confidential code, or malware you don't particularly want leaving an isolated machine.
But that goes both ways. A model running locally ultimately leaves the decision about what it should be used for with whoever is sitting at the keyboard. On my desk, with software I own, that's useful. Change the person at the keyboard and the same properties that make local models so appealing suddenly become part of the threat model. That's not an argument against local models, but it was a genuinely shocking result that I didn't expect.

Qwen 3.8 27B matters more than the bypass itself. It's proof that local models are accelerating fast, and even if it doesn't succeed with the next binary I throw its way, that doesn't change what happened here. It won't be the only model that's this capable at this size, even if it might stay ahead for a while. A model small enough to fit on a consumer graphics card took half an hour to tear apart a commercial application's authentication system and build a working bypass. Completely locally.
To be clear, I'm not naming the application because it's a real product that people pay for, and publishing its name adds nothing useful here. Regardless, the interesting part isn't which app it was, but that a task I would once have associated with a frontier model is now something I can hand to a freely available model that runs on the machine beside me.
I don't care about the benchmark numbers at this point. This is a much bigger change than another few points on a benchmark.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/antifa-cell-members-convicted...