https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty_(band)
They lived the Spinal Tap lifestyle before Spinal Tap.
So clearly this is rather important to some people.
Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.
Of course, this phenomenon is by no means unique to these two countries. I know a Japanese author who has a small but dedicated following for his argument that nuclear weapons don't exist: https://books.google.com/books/about/Death_Object.html?id=Mw...
There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang
And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sources. Among others, Japanese histories detail the journeys of emissaries to the Tang Court: https://web.archive.org/web/20260315181529/https://japansoci...
So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.
But I'll give it credit for hijacking a genuinely interesting scholarly premise: What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed. It is of rather mythic proportions; later Chinese would speak of Xia the way Romans would speak of Troy. And there is very little evidence to support its existence. The Shang Dynasty is also supported by rather scant evidence -- and is also mythic, though obviously less so than the Xia.
Worth noting that both the Xia and Shang are exceedingly ancient -- roughly 2000 BC to 1000 BC between them -- unlike the Tang, which fell around 900 AD and is thus middle-of-the-pack by Chinese dynastic standards.
I assumed that any "influencer" could be easily googled, but I cannot find literally anything. Or Google censors their name?
> “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have all been misleading people. I am the one who understands the truth, and I have exposed them all.’”
China got it's own form of Qanon.
Great, lets make this useful … this specific nonsense will settle down and be proven to be a hoax and/or misinformation. An important component of parenting today is to raise kids who take claims presented on the internet with a large grain of salt. Rather than contrived examples in critical thinking exercises they might get in class or a textbook, parents now have a perfect, real example here to show their kids that online nonsense can look authoritative and be very widely believed, and yet still be false. Shields up. Less time online for kids. And don’t outsource your critical thinking to the online majority or to AI!
The context was weird, the person pushing it was very passionate about the subject, and since I certainly don't know all that much about Chinese history from the period, I just smiled and nodded. Apparently this is a bigger thing?
It’s only 1729! Let’s goo, I mean:
Come on ye lads!
Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well?
Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?
The more interesting phenomenon is that we are able to agree on anything at all, it's not exactly our strongest instinct. Reading through HN, for example, the longest comment chains are a series of disagreements. But we build resources like Wikipedia and science journals, which also use disagreement as an engine for generating a more correct understanding. Its a strange and hopeful aspect of human societies.
It is more important than ever that we teach people to think critically and skeptically, and the necessity of empiricism (i.e., publicly verifiable evidence).
Not sure how HN's symbol stripper handles them, but here's a try:
qiao乔于yuIf you search on Google, there's a slew of Chinese restaurants in the US named "Ming Dynasty." If you were in the SF Peninsula in the 80's and 90's, the one on Embarcadero and 101 drew well known chefs from Hong Kong during its heyday. Conversely, Google knows of two "Ching" or "Qin Dynasty" restaurants in the US. Many Han Chinese have always looked down on the Ching Dynasty as illegitimate colonialists.
This particular issue is a sore point with the CCP with respect to Hong Kong. During the crackdowns in 2019, mainland propaganda justified the crackdown as de-colonization. They called the British takeover an invasion to force subjugation through mass drugging (opium).
In response to this, many protestors appealed to Han-centrism. They argued that the Ching were already an illegitimate colonizing force, and blame them for everything that led up to Western colonization. This includes everything from weakened military might to failed trade/war negotiations, to anti-opium crackdowns. If the British broke in, it's because the Manchus left the door open. And by legitimizing the Ching Dynasty, you have an indirect trail of responsibility to the CCP themselves.
This Hong Kong link is why this Tang issue is not a joke to the CCP.
Final note because I have to pre-emptively address this on social media: If you feel like you need to jump in with a generic anti-colonial comment, don't. Hongkongers' views of being British subjects, especially from 1970's on, should absolutely not be seen through Western, especially modern progressive PoV. TL;DR - the majority, often vast majority, of Hongkongers wished to remain under British rule.
Narrative warfare… I guess the question is, what isn’t “narrative warfare”?
Including a rather unusual battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Abbasid Caliphate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas
It's recorded that the Caliph, on hearing of the battle, said "What is this? A crossover episode?"
There are some nuances about this. We know that there are multiple developed cities (and likely monarchies, given there are palace-like ruins) around or before Xia era. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Xia Dynasty. But it doesn't meant that there were only small tribes and suddenly Shang came out of nowhere.
Historical revisionism, random people :angry: :barf:
There are people who believe that Trump won in 2020, that vaccines cause autism, and that the Holocaust is a hoax. You cannot reason people out of an idea they didn't use reason to arrive at.
I remember this controversy from a while and IIRC I don't think this is accurate. For one thing, they teach that slavery was a central role. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668557179/texas-students-will...
I remember looking at the actual key points in the Texas curriculum and nothing seems that unusual. Some people we IMO nitpicking.
Behold, the most educated and intellectually curious American, folks.
If you actually read the article, you'd be directing your vitriol at the Nanjing Daily and "The Paper, a media outlet affiliated with the Shanghai government."
This feels more plausible if you've only ever encountered pigeons and at some distance. If you've owned a parrot or some chickens, it is very apparent that this is not a spy camera. In fact the word I'd use for chickens is "saurian". They're clearly just lizards with feathers, if I didn't know their evolutionary story it would still scream at me when I see one laying on a rock in the sun that this is a lizard.
https://www.perkins.org/qa-a-factual-look-at-helen-kellers-a...
A timely reminder that, damn, China is olllldddd.
There's just a substantial bias where people assume all 'new knowledge' is wrong. Probably correct most the time, but still often wrong.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Shang#/media/File:Shang_d...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceroses_in_ancient_China
I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk!
I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong.
Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard.
Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they just aren’t very good at the sport
Shang, and all of the post-dynasty collapse centuries like The Spring and Autumn Period, were not great times to live in. Dismal and evil vibes, for the most part, unless you happen to be a mighty hero or bandit-lord who believes that he can conquer the age. Even so, most of them ended up in soup pots.
Zuck I think is also just for goofs but the others yes indeed have true believers.
to the TEXAS flag.
Just pointing out that the educational experience in Texas is not necessarily indicative of what the educational experience in the rest of the US is like.
Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.
Likewise, flying in a plane for any distance and seeing the course is identical to if you pulled a string tight against a globe (give or take). I suppose pilots could choose to fly in an arch to keep the secret, but eventually some capitalist has got to spill the beans to cut costs, right?
Also: the southern hemisphere.
There's some truth to this. The Japanese preserved certain Tang Dynasty customs which were lost to China, and they have some of the best collections of Tang-era artifacts.
This line of thought was, however, used in very unfortunate WWII-era propaganda, like "we have to invade China to rescue its civilization, only we can do this!"
Hong Kong —
Something weird has been happening on China’s internet. One small and vocal corner has been claiming the country’s most famous historical dynasty never existed.
That’s the Tang, which ruled China from 618 AD to 907 AD, a period that saw huge territorial expansion, booming international trade and the flourishing of a high culture envied far beyond its borders. Every child learns about the Tang at school; historical dramas inspired by its palace intrigues are a staple of state TV.
Claiming that the 300-year dynasty was actually a myth is akin to saying the American Civil War never happened, or telling a Brit that the Magna Carta is a fiction. But in recent months it’s been spreading among China’s very online population, posing a headache for a ruling Communist Party obsessed with controlling how its citizens talk about their 5,000 years of fractious and contested history.
It all appears to have started when a history influencer named Qiao Yu deployed some baffling astrological data in a video in May, to “prove” the Tang had never existed.
The outlandish claim has since spread far and wide. Reports later emerged that people were calling up the tourism bureau in Xi’an, the site of the ancient Tang capital, to demand it close down because the dynasty itself had been shown to be a hoax.
The hashtag “the Tang dynasty doesn’t exist” now has tens of millions of views on China’s X-like Weibo.

What motivated the hoax and its spread is hard to pin down. The Tang dynasty has been criticized in the past by Chinese nationalists as its founding emperor was not from the Han ethnic group that makes up most of China’s people. The basis of Qiao Yu’s claim is that the succeeding Song dynasty actually began far earlier than traditionally accepted, therefore canceling out the Tang. The Song dynasty was of ethnic Han origin.
“This is basically insane,” said William Kirby, a professor of China studies at Harvard University, adding that there are facts in history and “the Tang dynasty is definitely one of them.”
“It was much more than a Chinese dynasty. It was an inner Asian dynasty as well,” he said.
As the fallacy spread on social media, China’s powerful and tightly controlled state media waded into the controversy.
Many parents say that, thanks to the hoax, their children now feel confused about historical facts, the Nanjing Daily reported last month.
Three days later, The Paper, a media outlet affiliated with the Shanghai government, was more strident. “Only when rational inquiry becomes the foundation of public life will historical nihilism truly lose the conditions that allow it to flourish,” it said in a commentary.
“Historical nihilism” is a term coined by the ruling communist party that refers to discussion or research that challenges its version of China’s long history. The party itself is a relative newcomer to that story, coming to power in 1949 following a decades-long civil war that tore the country apart.
By mid-August the Tang controversy had attracted the attention of the party’s mouthpiece. In an editorial, the People’s Daily called the claim “absurd,” and issued a warning: “Once young people begin to doubt our national history, our cultural confidence will become like water without a source or a tree without roots, and Chinese-style modernization will lose its profound historical perspective.”

In recent years, Chinese leader Xi Jinping has tightened the party’s grip on history and sought harsher penalties for those who dare to challenge the official account.
Xi himself has publicly evoked the past glory of the Tang. In 2023 he hosted leaders from several Central Asian countries in Xian, the ancient Tang capital and terminus of the Silk Road along which goods and ideas used to flow between China and Europe.
The ceremony featured dancers and performers in Tang-style dress, observers noting the nod to a Tang past when foreign envoys came to pay tribute at the emperor’s court.
For a thousand years, Chinese people have used reflections on history to reimagine the past, as a creative way to criticize or approach the present.
For example, in the economic boom years of the early 2010s, amid growing criticism of the fixation on consumerism and bourgeois lifestyles, the hardships the Chinese people had undergone during Japan’s brutal occupation during WWII became a favored topic for intellectuals, according to Rana Mitter, a Harvard Kennedy School historian specializing in modern China.
But that discussion also allowed some to point out that the current discourse didn’t give enough credit to the Kuomintang troops who fought the Japanese – but who were also the opponents of Mao Zedong’s communists, Mitter said.

Even though the Tang era was more than a thousand years ago, any suggestion – however fanciful – that it never existed could be an irritant for the party, said Mitter.
“Certainly under Xi, the CCP now honors the longer trajectory of Chinese history. This means that all history needs to point in a direction that suggests unified (rather than split) identity, historical and cultural continuity, and an idea of ‘China’ as a long-standing entity that has been continuous through history,” he said.
Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities.
“It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have all been misleading people. I am the one who understands the truth, and I have exposed them all.’”
As of mid-August, Qiao Yu’s accounts have been blocked and all of their videos taken down. Any search of Chinese social media questioning if the Tang dynasty existed now pulls up content condemning such lines of reasoning.
In its editorial on the controversy, the People’s Daily attempted to have the final word.
“Chinese civilization has endured for five thousand years,” it said, “and the Golden Age of the Tang Dynasty stands as one of its most dazzling chapters.”
CNN’s Shuai Zhang contributed to the reporting.